8
   

The meek or the ruthless: who prevails in the end?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 12:05 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Are you saying He should have ended with - “And lead us not unto idiots, but deliver us from stupidity”?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 03:02 pm
@Leadfoot,
...the way I see it your "god" is imprisoned in a fractal without any free will to do otherwise...taking it one step further or perhaps one step back in the march of "progress" what would be of stupidity without guidance? What would be of intelligence without purpose? Go up one level heck go up a million levels or a trillion, the same story repeats...big and small are relative semantic referents to one's position...you and me, the other folk around, here and elsewhere in the cosmos, all the demigods and AGI's and their cousins or variations, and your "god" to...all characters in an already written story that loops around its own tail...the reason you might wonder? ...well because there is nothing else left to do. Completeness, oh completeness...its a bitch!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 04:22 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I think it's more about ignorance over stupidity. I think most of us have done something stupid.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 04:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
..oh I am stupid and ignorant all at once, most of the time, if not at all times...a true champion! Wink
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 05:59 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Don't demean yourself so much; it's a common human ailment.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 06:58 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
God is only imprisoned by the rules of the game he made - giving you free will while you struggle to figure out the rules and strategy of the game. But true, there would be no point without some guidance. You can find that both externally and internally. You aren’t required to pay any attention though.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 06:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
...I am not certain I wasn't being extremely arrogant with that remark "ipse se nihil scire id unum sciat" is a big burden to claim and I am no Socrates...you see I play this game of outguessing myself all the time...when I think I got it right I invert the parameters of my reasoning...usually I end up in circles as I did just now! Wink
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 07:08 pm
@Leadfoot,
It's late here in Portugal but I can't resist throwing some food for thought...
Isn't your "god" bound by his own nature? Moreover, a complete one...
Isn't your "god" bound by his own knowledge including the knowledge of himself?
What kind of "free will" is there if one creates a perfect project? What another project could your "god" have made instead, being the case that the one he made is perfect? Can you correct perfection?
...I don't see a Free god for many many reasons starting with a perfect thing not needing a mind which is a problem-solving machine, anyway I just pop out some and again it's late to push this to a 100 reply war...but I am curious for a quick come back!
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 07:15 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
My curiosity stems from the fact that my minor in college was Philosophy. Got a better grade in Philosophy over my major in Accounting. Accounting did, however, provide me with opportunities and somewhat of a financial success. My only proof being, I traveled to 132 countries, and still have enough savings to live a comfortable life in Silicon Valley, having retired in 1998. Rolling Eyes
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 07:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I very much "envy" your devotion and financial capacity to travel, there is nothing better one can do but to go out there and truly explore!
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 07:36 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I got hooked on travel when I was in the US Air Force back in the late 1950's, and got a one year assignment in Morocco, where I had the opportunity to visit Casablanca, Tangiers, Madrid, Paris and London. I got hooked, not hookered. I have friends in Moscow, Paris, Manchester (England), Germany, Cuba, Mexico, Canada, Singapore, Bhutan, and all across the US. I consider myself one of the fortunate ones. I met Sergei of Moscow on the internet, and when I visited Russia, he spent the day with me showing me around Moscow; places where most tourists don't visit. I met another Muscovite in Cuba, Oleg. He's the head of McDonalds in Russia. BTW, if you ever get the opportunity to visit Moscow, don't miss the underground train stations; they are some of the most beautiful in the world. https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=moscow+underground+train+stations+photos&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=safari&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzkrntyurjAhU8HTQIHVE1DXEQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=2317&bih=1377. Nobody misses, red square, Gum department store, and St Basil's Cathedral. I once took the river boat on the Volga from Moscow to St Petersburg. Got the chance to visit the Hermitage, one of the best art museums in the world.
Quote:
The State Hermitage Museum is a museum of art and culture in Saint Petersburg, Russia. The second-largest art museum in the world, it was founded in 1764 when Empress Catherine the Great acquired an impressive collection of paintings from the Berlin merchant Johann Ernst Gotzkowsky. Wikipedia
Also visited Empress Catherine's palace. https://russiable.com/catherines-palace-buy-tickets-online/
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 07:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I was able to visit the Tretyakov and Pushkin art museums in Moscow. Sergei met me at the Tretyakov, and dropped me off at the river boat when we finished for the day.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2019 09:32 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
It's late here in Portugal but I can't resist throwing some food for thought...
Isn't your "god" bound by his own nature? Moreover, a complete one...
Isn't your "god" bound by his own knowledge including the knowledge of himself?
What kind of "free will" is there if one creates a perfect project? What another project could your "god" have made instead, being the case that the one he made is perfect? Can you correct perfection?
...I don't see a Free god for many many reasons starting with a perfect thing not needing a mind which is a problem-solving machine, anyway I just pop out some and again it's late to push this to a 100 reply war...but I am curious for a quick come back!
.
Yes, yes, he is limited by those things (logic still applies, to him too) that's all covered by the rules of the game as I said before.

I don’t quite get you when you ask 'What kind of "free will" is there if one creates a perfect project? '. Why would 'perfection' preclude free will? To my mind, free will is a necessary part of the perfection.
And I am equally unwilling to accept as axiomatic that perfection requires no mind. You need one to both create and solve the 'game' we are in. Minds are good for more than problem solving. Why else would you be curious?

BTW, do you really consider this a war?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 01:39 am
@Leadfoot,
We disagree, but no it is not a war! Thank you!
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2019 06:53 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Your welcome.
Some of my favorite discussions happen over disagreements. Many here don’t have the same taste for it though.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Aug, 2019 03:15 pm
@Leadfoot,
This guy at least tries to be consistent with his beliefs...
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Aug, 2019 03:55 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I've never had a problem with free will vs omniscience.
Being foretold is not the same as foreordained.

Ever read Asimov's 'Foundation' series where he discusses 'PsychoHistory'? It's about how the progression of history of a human population can be foretold with complete accuracy if you know a minimum subset of all the determining factors. I would say that a God would have access to the full set so I'd expect him to be pretty good at it.

But it has nothing to do the the actions of an individual.

Then too, you could look at it as reading a book. You can know all in advance and read the last page first, but that would spoil the read.
I don't have any problem scientifically with God being able to control the dimention of Time since we know that simple accumulated matter or velocity can affect time. Why would we doubt that a God could? You want to see immediately what happens 100 years from now, all you have to do is visit a black hole for a short while and go back and take a look.

There is no contradiction here in my view.

Or is that the contradiction you meant?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2019 07:48 am
@Leadfoot,
No. IMO either in the exact same circumstances you are able to do otherwise or you don't. Thus having absolute knowledge of the future necessarily entails no one could do otherwise not even "god" itself. Moreover, the classical personal description of "god", a being with a mind cannot correspond to the "ground of all Being"...as I pointed out earlier a mind is a problem-solving machine even when you think it is not, all decisions are troubleshooting of what is best to do. Worse a finite one, with limited "computing" power and limited storage space. It tries to guestimate the future within its capacity in such a way that is beneficial for the individual. That is what you call "free will" without accounting for trillions of subconscious processes, the background/environment/circumstances, the hardware specificity/genetics.
...but there is more yet. If "god" is the most perfect being and can do no wrong, "god" can only bring into being the most perfect thing at a time, all in a sequence of the most perfect correlation of events, not causal events, but again correlated, since "god" is also the base source of Logic, not deriving from it. "god" is the cause without cause, the Logic without justification, but not free in any scenario. what it/"he" does, it must do! Again I ask you, how can your "god" be a mind? The biggest thing that no bigger can be thought off...that entails immediately, the set of "god" and the Universe all in one. We are now talking of Spinoza/Einstein God, not Anselm. Not free, not a mind, just the ground of all being! More akin to a timeless huge mathematical rock than a thinking living mind. I cannot for the life of me have such a simple-minded vision of "god" as you guys do. Perhaps my theology suffers from too much sophistication...
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2019 08:59 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
I cannot for the life of me have such a simple-minded vision of "god" as you guys do. Perhaps my theology suffers from too much sophistication...

Ah, there's the problem. As when they were surrounded by attacking Indians and the masked man said ‘ We can take them Tonto'. Tonto replied, 'What's this “we” **** whiteman.'

If you wish to criticize my theology, you will have to stop pinning the dogma of others' theology to me. You seem to have been embittered by it.
And you don’t even get the mainstream version of that right. Their story line has God being outside of space-time, not a subset of it. There is no overlap in their Vin diagram of theology.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Aug, 2019 09:05 am
@Leadfoot,
First, I pointed out that the biggest thing one can think off (classical claim) has to include the set of "god" and the set of the Universe. Both sets can be seen has time being an "emergent property", phenomena, not a fundamental feature of Reality.
Second I replied to your rebuttal, if there is any detail about your personal view of "god" that I am not aware of, bring it up!
Finally, please address the points I have made.
 

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