9
   

Don't Understand Sexual Consent? It's Like a Cup of Tea.

 
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 12:12 pm
@McGentrix,
It started here

http://rockstardinosaurpirateprincess.com/2015/03/02/consent-not-actually-that-complicated/

buncha stuff happened

and then the police used it in a campaign

http://metro.co.uk/2015/10/28/this-new-sexual-consent-and-tea-video-from-the-police-is-brilliant-5466392/

it's good stuff - not too complicated and not too aggressive about the message
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 12:44 pm
@McGentrix,
You know tea gets their attention.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 02:11 pm
@Lash,
Yes, they take their tea very seriously.

As for sexual consent, I like to get things signed and notarized. Makes it all on the up and up. Does kill the mood sometimes having the barrister pop up in the back seat and ask "Excuse me ma'am, but would please be so kind to sign here, here, initial here, here and here, and please sign here."

But, I have never been accused of any sexual crimes that way.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 02:36 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
But, I have never been accused of any sexual crimes that way


which leaves me to ask in what way were you? (raises and lowers way too fat black eyebrows and twiddles cigar)
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 03:15 pm
@Robert Gentel,
The "tea metaphor" represents sex as "pouring tea down down someone's throat". This is a horrible metaphor for sex in that it is something that one person (presumably the man) does to another person.

Responsible adult sex is not something that a man does to a woman. It is something that two people do together as equals.

Quote:
And if they consent to sex at some point and at another are stupid drunk and this inebriated sex consent is not given (implied or otherwise) then it is not ok.

Seems simple to me, what's the confusion?


This doesn't seem very simple to me at all. Actually nothing is simple when there are human beings involved. Ideally in any sexual relationship both people will take responsibility and communicate their desires... unfortunately in real life, particularly in young people, this doesn't always happen.

In the current narrative, when irresponsible sex happens there is a automatic jump to the conclusion that it is the man who is culpable. Surely there are women who have had sex with drunk men... you will never hear about this.

If two inebriated people have sex with each other, have they raped each other?

Human sexuality is very complex, there are countless types of sexual interactions. Some of these are experiences that both partners appreciate. Some of these are experience that both partners regret. Some of these are rape. Some of these are not rape.

The current political push is to move the line so that more sexual interactions are considered rape even when consent has been given and both partners have behaved in an equally irresponsible way. I don't believe that this is helpful.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 03:24 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
The "tea metaphor" represents sex as "pouring tea down down someone's throat". This is a horrible metaphor for sex in that it is something that one person (presumably the man) does to another person.


Are you intentionally being silly? They weren't equating all sex to that, but nonconsensual sex with someone who is passed out.

Quote:
Responsible adult sex is something that two people do together as equals (at least that's how I have always done it).


This video is not about responsible sex now is it? It is giving examples of what irresponsible sex would be.

Quote:
This doesn't seem very simple to me at all?


What about it do you find confusing?

Quote:
Actually nothing is simple when there are human beings involved. Ideally in any sexual relationship both people will take responsibility and communicate their desires... unfortunately in real life, particularly in young people, this doesn't always happen.


Sure but the simplicity I refer to is the simple concept of consent. I do understand that how that plays out in practice can get complicated but the question was not whether you find human sexuality complex but whether you found my simple statements about consent to be so.

Quote:
In the current narrative, when irresponsible sex happens there is a automatic jump to the conclusion that it is the man who is culpable. Surely there are women who have had sex with drunk men... you will never hear about this.


You are the one who jumped to the conclusion that forcing tea on someone must mean it is referencing a man. The video doesn't specify and you are projecting.


Quote:
Human sexuality is very complex, there are countless types of sexual interactions. Some of these are experiences that both partners appreciate. Some of these are experience that both partners regret. Some of these are rape. Some of these are not rape.


Where in the video do you see rape being defined? It's a simple video explaining simple concepts about consent. What part of the explanation about consent do you not agree with?

Quote:
The current political move is to move the line so that more sexual interactions are considered rape even when consent has been given and both partners have behaved in an equally irresponsible way. I don't believe that this is helpful.


It's obvious that this is your worldview but that doesn't really have anything to do with this video. The video is explaining basic concepts about consent, which ones do you disagree with? It does not define rape, does not redefine it, and does not move any goalposts.

It just explains basic concepts about consent, so which ones do you feel you should be allowed to do from the video?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 03:51 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Let's be honest... this video comes as part of the campaign that brings us "yes means yes". I don't think there is any doubt that this video is talking about men imposing sex on women-- do you really question this? I see this as obvious... I suppose I will dig up facts to support it if you really don't see this as obvious.

I am a middle aged man in a stable relationship. There is implicit consent in our relationship... obviously either of us can revoke that consent, but the consent is there. Either of us initiate sexual activity without asking permission... there is no need for any additional consent. I believe that this is how most adult sexual relationships work.

There are two interesting issues; how sexual relationships are being taught to college students and how sexual interactions are being judged when there is a disagreement. I think the current political movement behind these "consent" messages is failing to do either of these well.

I would like to see a message about the fact that when people mix large amounts of alcohol with sex, often they end up regretting what happens. People who do this are responsible for their actions. Obviously if one forces sex on another they are responsible for this. The current political climate makes messages in favor of personal responsibility... like "don't drink to excess while putting yourself in sexual situations", controversial.

If a man and a woman who are equally inebriated end up having sex and then regret it the next day, they have equal responsibility for what happened, right?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 03:54 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

It just explains basic concepts about consent, so which ones do you feel you should be allowed to do from the video?


If the other person wanted tea, started drinking tea and then passes out, is it then permissible to tie them up spread eagle and naked and then finish your tea by yourself?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 04:12 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
And if they consent to sex at some point and at another are stupid drunk and this inebriated sex consent is not given (implied or otherwise) then it is not ok.

Seems simple to me, what's the confusion?


Your example is not simple at all. Please explain in the case where both people are inebriated, how do you decide who is raping whom? It seems likely to me that either or both of the people involved might end up regretting the activity. But it also seems to me that they are both acting irresponsibly... and they have both made the choice to put themselves into this situation.

Can they be raping each other?
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 07:31 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Your example is not simple at all.


It's not confusing to me, I guess complicated/simple is not the same for everyone.

Quote:
Please explain in the case where both people are inebriated, how do you decide who is raping whom?


Who said you have to decide who is raping whom? The concept of consent is what I said was simple. If two people are inebriated then neither can give informed consent. Simple as ****.

Rape charges etc might not be simple things but consent is, and while this thread is not a discussion about rape charges (but about the simple concept of consent) if you must have my opinion on this I would not consider it a rape if both people are equally inebriated and are otherwise equally responsible etc.

Quote:
It seems likely to me that either or both of the people involved might end up regretting the activity. But it also seems to me that they are both acting irresponsibly... and they have both made the choice to put themselves into this situation.


All things being equal they are both equally responsible for the situation. Still seems simple to me, I'm starting to realize that it's not that you do not find the concept of consent simple but you merely disagree with the way society is going on these things. Your disagreement is duly noted but consent is still a simple concept.

Quote:
Can they be raping each other?


They would not be charged with the crime of rape, no. They are both however not able to give informed consent and that's rather obvious and straightforward.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 07:47 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I am not sure we disagree very much on this point. If what you are saying is that no one should have sex when anyone is inebriated unless everyone has given consent for exactly that situation... I would agree. That would solve a lot of the real life problems that come up.

I do believe that implied consent is perfectly reasonable in a long term adult relationship, in fact I think that most relationships work with implicit consent. This means that consent is assumed and it is perfectly safe for a person in a long term relationship to start sexual activity unless and until the other person says 'no'.

The problem comes in the real life cases where things happen and people make mistake, particularly with young people. If you are dealing with emotions, mixed signals and alcohol things happen. You want to tell kids (or some adults) to always be responsible. That isn't always going to happen.

Often there are real, serious consequences for both parties. In these cases getting the definitions and policy right is very important (and in my opinion often quite complex).
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 07:57 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I do believe that implied consent is perfectly reasonable in a long term adult relationship, in fact I think that most relationships work with implicit consent.


I agree that most relationships involve a lot of implied consent but just as often include explicit consent. Either way, you learn pretty quickly if there was implied consent or not (you try to initiate something you think is implied and you find out rather explicitly that it is not) and either way explicit consent is a lot better.

Here's how my conversation about it went:

Her: "ok babe, I'm going to sleep"
Me: "I'm gonna work for a bit but I may come in to bother you in a later"
Her: "go for it, I don't mind being woken up like that"
Me: "cool"

I probably wouldn't just have winged it that early in the relationship and dove right in so to speak, because I am thoughtful (or try to be) and understand that some people do not wish to have sex initiated while they are sleeping.

This kind of video helps people think about those kinds of things, that just because we've had sex a few times doesn't mean she wants surprise night sex.

Quote:
This means that consent is assumed and it is perfectly safe for a person in a long term relationship to start sexual activity unless and until the other person says 'no'.


Not all communication is explicit, to me these cases have communicated their consent (which is what you mean by "implied" consent). Acts and behavior over long time are tantamount to communication and communicating consent.

Quote:
The problem comes in the real life cases where things happen and people make mistake, particularly with young people. If you are dealing with emotions, mixed signals and alcohol things happen. You want to tell kids (or some adults) to always be responsible. That isn't always going to happen.


And that is what this video is addressing, the many young folks who think with their pants and don't even consider consent, and who see a passed out person as fair game.

Quote:
Often there are real, serious consequences for both parties. In these cases getting the definitions and policy right is very important (and in my opinion often quite complex).


Consequences and policy may be complex, consent really isn't. This video doesn't say a word about consequences and policies, it's just explaining the simple concept of consent and largely directed at young people who have not given this much thought.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 08:06 pm
@maxdancona,
My interest in this subject is that of policy. The pendulum has swung far too much in favor of the accuser against the accused. There are two different aspects of this.

1) Giving rights to people accused of sexual assault is discouraged, their accusers are automatically believed. The man Columbia student Emily Sulkowicz accused of rape was cleared after two investigations and two different levels of hearings (both the police and university) based on what I see as pretty clear documentary evidence that she did consent. Yet she became a celebrity where she was even invited as a special guess to the State of the Union address. The accused's name was publically dragged through the mud (he is now suing the university)

2) Political ideology on the issue is getting in the way of good policy.

The one type of anti-rape programs that has been shown to actually reduce the incidence of rape focuses on teaching women not to put themselves in vulnerable situations and to clearly communicate their lack of consent. In a recent Canadian study this type of program was shown to reduce the incidence of rape among first year college students by 50%.

You see the problem with this?

The program that is effective doesn't match the political narrative. The programs that are politically acceptable because they focus on the alleged rape tendencies of men have been shown to be ineffective, with only short term changes of attitude based on pencil and paper tests and no effect in the incidence of rape. And yet these are the programs that are being implemented based on pretty intense political pressure.

Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 08:13 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
My interest in this subject is that of policy.


Well there are plenty of threads on policy and on rape so I'm not going to derail a thread about the simple concept of consent with the shitstorm that typically happens on those threads.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 08:18 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Sure Robert. I think most adult relationships work this stuff out pretty easily without much thought. I suspect that most of the problem on college campuses happens with casual sex (this is a guess, I don't have any numbers on this). But I know from experience that adult relationships work this out pretty naturally.

I had brief relationship with a woman who was a college professor. When we were kissing and petting for the first time she actually started asked for consent for each step... she reached down to touch me and asked "is this OK", then she reached to unfasten my pants and said "do you want this"?

I found this odd and unnatural... in fact I stopped her and said "look, anything you want to do is OK with me, and I am going to assume that it is OK with you too". We joked about it later... the university had her take sexual harassment training and read a statement to her students each semester and she took it too seriously. But I found it annoying, I certainly didn't appreciate it.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 08:24 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I think the definition of consent is a basis of policy. The whole "yes means yes" vs. "no means no" debate is based on the definition of consent (and by extension the definition of sexual misconduct).

But ok.

1) I agree that having sex with someone who is unconscious is a bad thing except in cases where you have an ongoing relationship with explicit or implicit consent for such a thing.

2) I also agree that having sex once doesn't give anyone a right to force someone to have sex again. Although I would go further and say that no one should force someone to have sex with them.

If that is all the video is saying, than I guess I am on board with it. (The end did make me chuckle... I don't know if the narrator intended to imply he was about to go masturbate)

I was reading more into the video... maybe I shouldn't have.



glitterbag
 
  4  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 08:35 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I think it's a very good way of defining consent. Not just sexual consent, because it is applicable to other situations.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 08:46 pm
@maxdancona,
I do think that the video is really just trying to educate young people about those basic concepts of consent that you do not find controversial and that you are bringing a2k debate baggage into it, yes.

And yes, there is certainly a lot more to the general topic than this and much that is not as straightforward.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 08:57 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
explaining the simple concept of consent and largely directed at young people who have not given this much thought.


I wish there was a way to show this to everyone entering/re-entering the dating world. Things are different now than they were 10/20/30/40/50 years ago.

People are coming into new sexual relationships with all kinds of different histories and expectations. I was talking with my best friend about those different histories a couple of weeks ago - she has children in their 20's starting relationships, brothers-in-law who are dating after 15 and 30 years of not dating, and a father-in-law in a nursing home who has a new romantic interest after 60+ years. All of them seem to be confused about when to move forward sexually and when to sit still/back off.

Going over basic consent with something like the tea video might prevent some awkward complications (and possibly dangerous ones ... if they're unconscious, check to see if they're ok)
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 09:13 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Ok. I accept this.
 

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