Oscar Pistorius - murder or accident

Forums: Legal, Oscar Pistorius, Olympics, South Africa, Murder Trial
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Oscar Pistorius' claim he mistook his girlfriend for a burglar has highlighted the drastic measures South Africans take over their fear of crime.

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PARALYMPIC champion Oscar Pistorius has been released on bail after his conviction for his girlfriend’s murder, as his lawyers say they will launch an appeal to South Africa’s constitutional court.

“(Pistorius’s bail) affidavit deals ... with the basis for the application for leave to appeal to the Constitutional Court,” his lawyer Barry Roux told the bail hearing in the High Court in Pretoria on Tuesday.

Pistorius’ release was continued on 10,000 rand ($952) bail after prosecutor Gerrie Nel said he would not oppose its continuation.

However, Pistorius’ movement is strictly limited. Judge Aubrey Ledwaba said Pistorius would continue to be under house arrest, but would be able to leave the property in Pretoria with permission from the investigating officer between 7am and midday provided he not travel beyond a 20km radius. Pistorius will also be put under electronic monitoring, the judge added.

His sentencing for murder has been postponed until 16 April 2016.

http://www.news.com.au/world/oscar-pistorius-to-appeal-conviction-for-the-murder-of-reeva-steenkamp/news-story/0210cbc5ee7d0e4eb1c7bce4572e9750

When he was first sentenced and not for murder, I assumed that the evidence of the shooting didn't add up to a cold blooded killer, or at least a jealous boyfriend, though I had my very strong doubts.

The mere overwhelming reaction from the public coupled with appeals and now he's a murderer.

Then, how's the house arrest, he can travel 20k's a day, from morning to lunch and why a house arrest, because he "was" famous" or the law over there states, until sentenced. The bail $1000, nearly, only.. I'm waiting for him to run, electronic devise or not, sorry no punt intended but he can run.

Seems like a muck-up to me. Such a waste of a woman, so young.

Who would fire shots into a toilet without checking where their girlfriend was first.

I wouldn't think any sane person would.

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@FOUND SOUL,

FOUND SOUL wrote:

Who would fire shots into a toilet without checking where their girlfriend was first.
I wouldn't think any sane person would.

Happens all the time in America. Some guy sees a fleeting shadow in his house, shoots it a couple time with a shotgun, then finds that he's just killed his daughter.

Often they aren't charged in America. I think they should be charged with manslaughter. Shooting in self defense should be reserved for when you're under attack, IMO, not for when you see a fleeting shadow.

As far as Pistorius goes, it is possible that it was intentional murder. BUT, no one has produced any evidence to prove that it was murder, and it is also possible that it was manslaughter.

I'm kind of horrified at the thought of him being convicted of murder when there was no evidence for anything more than manslaughter.

He may well have killed her intentionally. But I'd be happier if they produced some evidence to that effect before convicting him of murder.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

When you shoot directly through a door because you think someone is there and hit and kill this person it is murder.You know there is someone and you aim at that person, no warning, no calling the police no nothing.
It is a tradegy it was his girlfriend and he has to be punished for that as murder.
On the other hand you do not kill burglers either - especially if they do not threathen you and are afreid and hide in the bathroom.

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@saab,

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On the other hand you do not kill burglers either - especially if they do not threathen you and are afreid and hide in the bathroom

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This.

Doesn't that suggest that they are non - threatening? They are hiding, call the cops. He actually, crawled to his gun, did not put his legs on, let's look at that, if he was frightened blade runner, wouldn't you hold the gun, put your legs on aim at the door in wait?

Fishy over the thought that she was leaving him............

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@saab,

saab wrote:

When you shoot directly through a door because you think someone is there and hit and kill this person it is murder.

Only if you are deliberately trying to kill someone who is not a threat to you.

If you are trying to defend yourself from a perceived threat, but your actions are unreasonable, that is manslaughter.

saab wrote:

You know there is someone and you aim at that person, no warning, no calling the police no nothing.

There is cause to find that his actions were unreasonable. That is why he should be convicted of manslaughter.

If his actions had been reasonable, the correct outcome would be no conviction at all.

saab wrote:

It is a tradegy it was his girlfriend and he has to be punished for that as murder.

It would be better to have evidence that he intentionally and knowingly shot his girlfriend before convicting him of murder.

saab wrote:

On the other hand you do not kill burglers either

You've never been to Texas I take it. There it is legal to lie in ambush and shoot fleeing burglars in the back.

But anyway, burglars sometimes only remain burglars when they don't confront anyone. Burglars have been known to transform into rapists and murderers upon stumbling across a person in the place they are burgling.

If a burglar attacks you it is best to shoot them until they stop attacking.

saab wrote:

especially if they do not threathen you and are afreid and hide in the bathroom.

Mr. Pistorius says he thought a burglar was entering his apartment through the bathroom, not hiding in the bathroom.

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@oralloy,

Do you really think he thought that?

Take law out of it.

What man doesn't check the woman he loves is "safe" before he attends to shooting a burglar?

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Apparently South Africa is a country where self defense is considered murder. That makes theirs an unjust system, and Mr. Pistorius has a right to escape their clutches by any means possible. Whether he will have an opportunity to escape is another question.

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I consider it cold blooded murder.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

I consider it cold blooded murder.

There are several things that you could mean by "it" here.

If you mean that "self defense is cold-blooded murder" (which is the position of the South African courts), that is clearly wrong. The right to defend yourself is a basic human right that is shared by all mankind.

If you mean that "it is cold-blooded murder to mistakenly shoot the wrong person, believing that you are firing on an attacker" (which is the worst that the prosecution could prove on Mr. Pistorius' part), that is also clearly wrong. If you believe that you are firing on an attacker, you are not maliciously trying to harm anyone.

If you mean that "you believe that Mr. Pistorius intentionally killed his girlfriend, and his self defense claims are a lie", that is possible. However, the prosecution did not succeed in proving this in court. If people are to be convicted of murder, it would be much better if their guilt was first established in court.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

If you mean that "you believe that Mr. Pistorius intentionally killed his girlfriend, and his self defense claims are a lie", that is possible. However, the prosecution did not succeed in proving this in court. If people are to be convicted of murder, it would be much better if their guilt was first established in court.

Here I will copy and paste a bit, as you don't like opening links or catching up on the News before posting.

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Paralympic champion Oscar Pistorius has made a last-ditch attempt with South Africa's top court to overturn his murder conviction for shooting dead his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp in 2013

He has been on bail awaiting a new sentence since December, when judges found him guilty of murder, overturning his earlier conviction on the lesser charge of culpable homicide.

Under the new conviction for murder, Pistorius, 29, faces a minimum 15-year jail term that may be reduced due to time already spent in jail and the fact that he is a first-time offender.

"We have lodged an application for leave to appeal to the Constitutional Court," Andrew Fawcett, a lawyer on Pistorius's legal team said.

Pistorius was released from jail in October to live under house arrest at his uncle's property in Pretoria after serving one year of his five-year prison sentence for culpable homicide — the equivalent of manslaughter.

But Supreme Court of Appeal (SCA) judges last month described his testimony at his trial in 2014 as "untruthful" and delivered a damning indictment of the original verdict.

Legal papers filed at the Constitutional Court on Monday by Pistorius's lawyers contended that the SCA had "acted unlawfully and unconstitutionally" by rejecting factual findings of the original verdict.

They also accused the SCA of making "errors of law" over the principle of "dolus eventualis" — awareness of the likely outcome of an action — which has been at the crux of the long-running case.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-12/oscar-pistorius/7082588

1 Reply

@FOUND SOUL,

FOUND SOUL wrote:

Here I will copy and paste a bit, as you don't like opening links or catching up on the News before posting.

There are occasions when I make it a point to clearly state in my posts that I'm not following a subject closely. But in the absence of such a statement, it is safe to assume that I already know all publicly available information about any subject that I am interested enough in to make posts about.

Unless I'm openly asking questions of course. In that case my knowledge is lacking about the point that I am specifically asking about.

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They also accused the SCA of making "errors of law" over the principle of "dolus eventualis" — awareness of the likely outcome of an action — which has been at the crux of the long-running case.

The appeals judges are lying. The crux of the case is whether or not it is murder to shoot someone in self defense. The principle of dolus eventualis is not even remotely at the crux of the case.

The fact that they are willfully lying to the public in order to hide their actions is a strong indicator that the appeals judges know that they are doing something seriously wrong.

Most likely the appeals judges believe that Pistorius intentionally killed his girlfriend even though this was never proven, and they are ignoring the law in order to prevent him from escaping what they believe to be justice -- not too different from a police officer manufacturing fraudulent evidence against someone who they believe is guilty even though they can't prove it.

Unfortunately the wave of DNA exonerations in the US has shown that quite often when police officers decide to manufacture fraudulent evidence against someone who they are sure is guilty even though they can't prove it, the person is actually innocent.

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Interesting sentence today. Instead of the three further years of house arrest that he would have served with his earlier sentence, now he'll have two more years of prison and then will be eligible for parole.

I wonder if he'll be able to run in the 2020 Olympics now.

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Brilliant news, and the murderer's record couldn't have been smashed by a nicer guy.

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New Zealand's Liam Malone has broken a Paralympic Games record held by South Africa's Oscar Pistorius.

The 22-year-old, from Nelson, won gold in the men's 200m T44 final in Rio in a time of 21.06 seconds. Pistorius' record was 21.30 seconds.

Victory gave Malone his second medal of the Games and New Zealand's third gold of the day.

He won silver in the 100m on Friday, losing out to Great Britain's Jonnie Peacock, who retained his title.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37346334

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

the murderer's record

Do you have any evidence that it was murder? The South African prosecution never managed to provide evidence of anything more severe than manslaughter.

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@oralloy,

I'm not wasting time on your nonsense. He's a murderer.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

I'm not wasting time on your nonsense.

A request for evidence is hardly nonsense.

izzythepush wrote:

He's a murderer.

No one has produced any evidence that this is true.

Enlightened societies embrace a legal principle known as "innocent until proven guilty".

We only have proof of manslaughter. That is why the judge imposed a sentence that is more consistent with a manslaughter conviction than with a murder conviction.

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All conversations with you are pointless. You live in a bubble completely disconnected from reality. I don't want to waste my time indulging your paranoid fantasies.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

You live in a bubble completely disconnected from reality.

Funny how no one can point out any facts that I am wrong about.

izzythepush wrote:

I don't want to waste my time indulging your paranoid fantasies.

Funny how no one can point out any paranoid fantasies on my part.

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The state is once again trying to get an unjust sentence imposed:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-safrica-pistorius-idUSKCN11L20I

Given the corruption that this panel of judges showed the last time they ruled on this case, this may be a bad sign for South Africa. But we'll see how they rule this time around.

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Oscar Pistorius - murder or accident

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