Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 10:12 am
@maxdancona,
http://33.media.tumblr.com/2db249d300cecfe8e1c912130fc4bf6e/tumblr_nlzzcpuUye1s9362xo1_1280.gif
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 10:17 am
@maxdancona,
An example of such error, persisted in, is the luminiferous aether, specifically as proposed by Clerk Maxwell. Although it had been loosely accepted before Maxwell, Maxwell's version of the "theory" was quickly accepted and as quickly shot down by the Michelson–Morley experiment. The physics community then spent 20 years anguishing over the null results of the M-M experiment, and trying to discover where they had gone wrong experimentally. Lorentz proposes a relativistic explanation, without abandoning that hilarous concept of the aether. It is not until Einstein's paper on optics that the scientific community finally begins to drop its belief in the aether.

The good news is that science doesn't sweep null results and failures under the carpet. Scientists get buy attempting to explain such things, or to come up with hypotheses which account for the data, or lack of data in the case of Michelson-Morley.

Really, your statement comes close to lameman's claim about science being a religious faith.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 10:24 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Give me an example where a scientific consensus was wrong about something that they were "certain" about. By scientific consensus I mean statements from all of the major scientific institutions and agreement by more than 95% of scientists in the field.

It took science about 60 years to do the studies, take measurements, publish papers and reach this conclusion. But now we are here. Right now, you have urgent statements from every major reputable scientific organization, from NASA to the AAAS to APS, they are all on board.


Read my post again Setanta. And, for the record, I am am arguing here that we should damn well take scientists seriously when they say that human induced climate change is a real risk. I don't know if you feel that taking a shot at me is worth you siding with Ted Cruz to put the risk of climate change in doubt, or if you really feel that the science about climate change is still uncertain.

I feel strongly that we should be making every effort to address this risk.

Here is the statement from the AAAS again.

Quote:
The overwhelming evidence of human-caused climate change documents both current impacts with significant costs and extraordinary future risks to society and natural systems. The scientific community has convened conferences, published reports, spoken out at forums and proclaimed, through statements by virtually every national scientific academy and relevant major scientific organization — including the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) — that climate change puts the well-being of people of all nations at risk.


Now please, show me an equivalent statement from any scientific organization about the luminiferous aether?

I am waiting.

Really, all this dithering about how climate change isn't a real risk we need to take seriously is frustrating.



BillRM
 
  0  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 10:31 am
@maxdancona,
Sorry the climate is always in a state of flux long before human came into the picture and even those I am damn sure humans are now having some impact on the earth climate the fairly details predicts by unproven computer models seems of very little value.

Hell only twenty thousands years ago a large part of New York State was under a mile or so of ice.

BillRM
 
  0  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 10:41 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
human induced climate change is a real risk.


The real risk value judgement is the thing I have a problem with as even if we did not exist the climate would be changing and even in short time frames in some cases.

Hell we do not know enough to know if we might be making the climate better for humans by slowing down the next ice age return.

The only thing anyone know for sure is that with or without humans earth climate will do large scale changes.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 10:43 am
@BillRM,
I am glad to see you and Setanta on the same side in this debate Bill. It is sweet.

I think I am the only person who can make that happen.
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 10:48 am
I did not address the issue of climate change, and as ought to be obvious to anyone who has read what i've written here, rather that rushing off in a "dither" to defend indefensible statements. Your claim about consensus is an indefensible position. Maxwell proposed his luminiferous aether in the 1870s. In large measure because of his stature as a scientist, Maxwell's hypothesis was accepted. The M-M experiment did not take place until the late 1880s, and for almost 20 years the scientific community anguished over the null results of M-M, and assumed that Michelson and Morley had done it wrong, or measured it wrong. People continued to attempt to replicate M-M's experiment and to eliminate the "errors" before finally accepting that the null results meant that the Maxwell hypothesis was untenable. The bad news is that you seem to be peddling the same kind of faith in scientific consensus as that which upset the physics community at the end of the 19th century. The good news is that scientists get busy when that happens, and sooner or later explain the anomaly or propose a more plausible hypothesis.

I have not suggested for a moment that anthropogenic climate change is not occurring. I do, however, consider that to be the best possible hypothesis, and don't think that it rises to the dignity of a "proven" theory.
BillRM
 
  0  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:00 am
@maxdancona,
Have you ever work with large scale and complex computer models trying to get their outputs to match real life conditions?

It been a long long time for me and it was economic modeling but I remember how tiny changes can result in the model blowing up.

To tear up the world economic base on computer models of something as complex and far from understood as earth climate is insane as far as I am concern.

Once more it s human not to wish to admit that we just do not know but our attempts to slow the impact of humans on climate may result in harm not benefits to us.



maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:13 am
@Setanta,
The point with climate change is that we have a scientific consensus (as noted by the AAAS) that human induced climate change is happening, has been measured, and presents a real danger that suggests immediate action.

I will post AAAS statement again. My stance is exactly the same as theirs.

Quote:
The overwhelming evidence of human-caused climate change documents both current impacts with significant costs and extraordinary future risks to society and natural systems. The scientific community has convened conferences, published reports, spoken out at forums and proclaimed, through statements by virtually every national scientific academy and relevant major scientific organization — including the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) — that climate change puts the well-being of people of all nations at risk.


Do you note they use words "overwhelming evidence"?

This has nothing to do with the luminiferous aether. The story are relating is actually an example of science working the way it should work. People made an assumption that made sense to everyone. They did an experiment to test that assumption. The experiment failed to detect it. They questioned the experiment and ran it again. It failed again. They came up with an alternative explanation. They tested it. That failed too. They came up with another explanation. They tested it. It succeeded. The new theory was accepted.

There is no where in history that I saw anyone saying that there was "overwhelming evidence" supporing liminiferous aether. I would love to see a link if you are saying they did. It was an assumption, and an incorrect one. But everyone knew that something wasn't working which is why they did Michelson-Morley in the first place (the problem with the current theory was actually suggested with interference in water well before Michelson-Morley). There was never overwhelming evidence in favor of the luminiferous aether. They were looking for it, Michelson-Morley would have given it, but they never found it.

Scientists today are saying that there is "Overwhelming evidence" that human induced climate change presents a real risk... This isn't just a theoretical framework, it is something that is being measured by people who have put up satellites to measure it.

People who are trying to "debunk" climate change use stories like this to cast doubt on the ability of scientists to reach any level of certainty. It is a bogus argument.

Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:17 am
@BillRM,
I can no more agree with this than i do with Max's comic book characterization of the scientific community. It's energy sector propaganda that it would be necessary to "tear up the world economic base" in order to take meaningful steps to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:21 am
@maxdancona,
I'm not trying to debunk anything. I'm simply pointing out that your call for an example of a consensus in the scientific community having been wrong is easily answered.

I find it ironically amusing that you invoke the AAAS. This thread was started because of an account of the 1975 AAAS convention during which topics such as ESP/telepathy and Velikovsky were being presented as serious topics for discussion. Plus ça change . . .
rosborne979
 
  2  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:33 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I've been listening to a program on the radio about an assault on science. (Assault is my term, not what was said in the program.) I happen to agree that there is an anti-science attitude in society. I am interested to know what people here think of the idea.

I don't think there is a unified and intentional assault on science, but I do think there is an anti-science attitude in western society which has grown much more visible due to the vast exposure of raw information available on the Internet. I think it has also been fueled by the encroachment of the entertainment industry into the news industry.

Before the internet there was a natural throttling mechanism for the visibility of ideas/information because it took effort (or cost money) to make ideas public. This produced a natural "survival of the fittest [idea]" which meant that causal exposure to ideas tended to expose people to the cream of the crop. That innate mechanism has now been superseded by the reduced cost and effort to make information visible, and to the value of ideas as entertainment rather than information.

The result of all this is that outlier ideas, which are just as valuable to science at mainstream ideas, are getting a very different level of visibility to that of their past and the public's natural instinct for skepticism is being bypassed because of our past behavior patterns. I suspect that at least a couple of generations will have to pass before a new level of skepticism of information takes hold in the population and people once again turn to the rigors of science (which is the only methodology proven historically effective) as the only thing they can really trust to give us effective results.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:35 am
@Setanta,
How fun! In your thread titled "an Assualt on Science" you make an ad hominem attack on a respected scientific institution. I love irony!

The question is, is there a preeminent scientific institution that you won't try to discredit with smears? Let's try a couple more.

Here is statement from the American Physical society.

Quote:
Emissions of greenhouse gases from human activities are changing the atmosphere in ways that affect the Earth's climate. Greenhouse gases include carbon dioxide as well as methane, nitrous oxide and other gases. They are emitted from fossil fuel combustion and a range of industrial and agricultural processes.
The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring.
If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur.
We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now.


Here is the statement from the American Geophysical society

Quote:
Human activities are changing Earth’s climate. At the global level, atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide and other heat‐trapping greenhouse gases have increased sharply since the Industrial Revolution. Fossil fuel burning dominates this increase. Human‐caused increases in greenhouse gases are responsible for most of the observed global average surface warming of roughly 0.8°C (1.5°F) over the past 140 years. Because natural processes cannot quickly remove some of these gases (notably carbon dioxide) from the atmosphere, our past, present, and future emissions will influence the climate system for millennia.

Extensive, independent observations confirm the reality of global warming. These
observations show large‐scale increases in air and sea temperatures, sea level, and
atmospheric water vapor; they document decreases in the extent of mountain glaciers, snow cover, permafrost, and Arctic sea ice. These changes are broadly consistent with long‐understood physics and predictions of how the climate system is expected to respond to human‐caused increases in greenhouse gases. The changes are inconsistent with explanations of climate change that rely on known natural influences.


I could give you similar statements from NASA, American Chemical Society. the National Academy of sciences.

The scientific organizations are all saying that the evidence is overwhelming.
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:36 am
@rosborne979,
I could not agree more with your statement.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:38 am
@maxdancona,
I am curious Setanta, scientists also tell us there is overwhelming incontrovertible evidence that smoking causes cancer deaths.

Do you accept this as settled science? Or do you really doubt the ability of us to find overwhelming evidence for anything... because luminiferous aether.
Setanta
 
  2  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:41 am
@maxdancona,
An ad hominem attack? You i will assign to that legion of people online who do not understand what the term argumentum ad hominem actually means. As for irony, i love it, too; which is why i made my remark. I'm not trying to discredit any institutions. Your rhetorical skills are so paltry that you attempt to make such a charge. You asked Bill for an example of the scientific community having a consensus which was proven wrong. I provided such an example. You're so eager to get into a pissing contest that you ignore my statement that i accept the position. Really, it's enough for you to know that i have made a statement for you to get hysterical about it. I am not now nor have i at any time in this thread denied that climate change is taking place. As i have already stated, i provisionally accept the hypothesis that it is antropogenic.
Setanta
 
  3  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:42 am
@maxdancona,
Oh, i see. You hope to start another pissing contest. Good luck with that.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 11:59 am
To return to the topic of Maxwell's luminiferous aether hypothesis: it is confidently stated again and again by people who think they know the history of science that Einstein's paper on SR overthrew Maxwell's hypothesis. This is false. It was Einstein's paper on optics which did that. He presented four papers for publication, and the paper on optics was the one in which he proposed that light has both wave and particle properties, thereby showing that Maxwell's explanation of how light could be propagated over long distances of otherwise "empty" space was unnecessary. People get this wrong again and again. I'm not going to waste a lot of time on this--i've already been over this in detail with Fresco a few years ago. He is another example of someone who thinks he knows science, but whose understanding of the history of science fails him because he lacks the detail.

Quote:
In the first article "On A Heuristic Point of View Concerning the Production and Transformation of Light" Einstein proposed that electromagnetic radiation must consist of quantums or photons. Even though this theory is capable of explaining - among other things - the photoelectric effect it was at first rejected by physicists, namely by the pioneer of modern physics, Max Planck, later, however, confirmed by him and adopted. This work became the foundation of a quantum theory and for this in particular Einstein received the Nobel Prize for the year 1921.


Source

This source is rather simplistic, but has (roughly) the same historical narrative:

Quote:
In 1905—seen by many as a "miracle year" for the theorist—Einstein had four papers published in the Annalen der Physik, one of the best known physics journals of the era. The four papers focused on the photoelectric effect, Brownian motion, the special theory of relativity (the most widely circulated of the write-ups) and the matter/energy relationship, thus taking physics in an electrifying new direction. In his fourth paper, Einstein came up with the equation E=mc2, suggesting that tiny particles of matter could be converted into huge amounts of energy, foreshadowing the development of atomic power.

Famed quantum theorist Max Planck backed up the assertions of Einstein, who thus became a star of the lecture circuit and academia, taking on various positions before becoming director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physics from 1913 to 1933.


Source

Quote:
The article "On a Heuristic Viewpoint Concerning the Production and Transformation of Light"[einstein 1] received March 18 and published June 9, proposed the idea of energy quanta. This idea, motivated by Max Planck's earlier derivation of the law of black body radiation, assumes that luminous energy can be absorbed or emitted only in discrete amounts, called quanta. Einstein states,

Energy, during the propagation of a ray of light, is not continuously distributed over steadily increasing spaces, but it consists of a finite number of energy quanta localised at points in space, moving without dividing and capable of being absorbed or generated only as entities.

In explaining the photoelectric effect, the hypothesis that energy consists of discrete packets, as Einstein illustrates, can be directly applied to black bodies, as well.

The idea of light quanta contradicts the wave theory of light that follows naturally from James Clerk Maxwell's equations for electromagnetic behavior and, more generally, the assumption of infinite divisibility of energy in physical systems.

A profound formal difference exists between the theoretical concepts that physicists have formed about gases and other ponderable bodies, and Maxwell's theory of electromagnetic processes in so-called empty space. While we consider the state of a body to be completely determined by the positions and velocities of an indeed very large yet finite number of atoms and electrons, we make use of continuous spatial functions to determine the electromagnetic state of a volume of space, so that a finite number of quantities cannot be considered as sufficient for the complete determination of the electromagnetic state of space.

[... this] leads to contradictions when applied to the phenomena of emission and transformation of light.

According to the view that the incident light consists of energy quanta [...], the production of cathode rays by light can be conceived in the following way. The body's surface layer is penetrated by energy quanta whose energy is converted at least partially into kinetic energy of the electrons. The simplest conception is that a light quantum transfers its entire energy to a single electron . . .


Source

A favorite line of mine from a novel i greatly enjoyed was: "You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be a rocket scientist." People without specialized training, but with a reasonable intelligence can understand basic principles. Whether or not Max agrees, i think it is not unreasonable for me to place myself in that category. Maxwell's hypothesis was challenged in Einstein's paper on optics, not SR.
rosborne979
 
  2  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 12:06 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I could not agree more with your statement.

I would also add that we live in a very interesting and unique time. But because we are immersed in it we do not recognize its innocence and naivete in historical perspective.

In short, I think this anti-science fad will be a short lived phenomena. Science itself as a successful methodology has been on an unstoppable march for several centuries now and it shows no sign of losing its potency. Ultimately I think humanity is a pragmatic organism which will find effective ways to prosper. There will always be outliers and black swans which may divert us temporarily but they also serve to give science its creativity, and to hone the value of the ideas which prove most effective.

In the mean time, we peer deeply into the LED Matrix of our devices and draw from them the wisdom of ages and the insanity of the masses.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Sat 5 Dec, 2015 12:07 pm
@Setanta,
You provisionally accept the hypothesis that it is anthropogenic. That is the first step.

I have two question about what the phrase "provisionally accept the hypothesis" means.


1) The scientific community is going much further than that. They are saying there is "overwhelming" and "incontrovertible" evidence. What would it take for the scientific community to convince you that their position is correct?

2) The scientific community also says pretty incontrovertibly that smoking causes cancer. So you believe that there is "overwhelming evidence" that smoking causes cancer? Or are you only willing to say you provisionally accept the hypothesis that smoking causes cancer.

The question is whether you ever trust the scientific community to know something with certainty.

0 Replies
 
 

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