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Who's familiar with the conversion? - "In 15 years' ship-time they could reach Andromeda

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 01:16 pm
@layman,
It is not a strawman at all. I am showing the contradictions in your reasoning. Sometimes you think the Earth frame of reference is correct. Sometimes you think the Mars frame of reference is correct. Sometimes you think the CMB frame of reference is correct. The fact that you will switch between different frames of reference makes you sound like a relativist.

And yet you are still resisting relativism.

Let me ask you this.

A person on mars will say that he is motionless (and you say that this is correct). A person on Earth will also say that he is motionless (and you also say that this is correct).

And yet the person on Earth will be moving wrt the person on Mars. And the person on Mars will be moving wrt the person on Earth.

For whom will time slow down (according to your understanding of Physics) the person on Mars or the person on Earth?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 01:22 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

The Lorentz transforms (LT) say that a moving clock will run slower than a stationary one. Both special relativity (SR) and Lorentzian relativity (LR) use the LT. So what's the difference?

Well, start with two "observers" who are moving with respect to each other, call them A and B.

In SR, A will say that he is stationary, so B is the one moving, so therefore B's clock is running slow. At the same time...

B will say that he is stationary, so A is the one moving, so therefore A's clock is running slow.

Then SR says they are both right. Each clock "really does" run slower than the other. See if you can figure that one out, eh?

LR will say that, as between the two, there can be only one "moving" clock. This could simply mean that one is moving "faster" than the other, because the faster you go, the more time slows down for you. Neither A nor B has to be seen as "absolutely motionless" as in SR. They could both be moving.

In LR, if it is A that is moving faster, then A's clock is slower than B's and, needless to say, B's clock is running FASTER than A's (not slower).

Which one makes more sense, I ask ya?

With respect to the original assertions being made, LR would say it's impossible to go 14 billion light years in just 23 years WITHOUT exceeding the speed of light.

SR? Sure, you can do that, in "theory" at least.


http://able2know.org/topic/301703-18#post-6076005

This seems to contradict what you are saying now.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 02:26 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Sometimes you think the Earth frame of reference is correct. Sometimes you think the Mars frame of reference is correct.


That's right. It's kinda like GR, which does not have any "global" (i.e., universal) spacetime structure. In GR everything is "local" and varies according to the dominant gravitational mass in the vicinity. Same with LR it is ultimately motion with respect to the local center of gravity. On earth, that would be earth. On mars, that would be Mars. On the scale of the solar system (e.g. interplanetary matters) , it would be the solar barycenter, etc. There simply is no ONE and ONLY universal preferred frame. The preferred frame depends on the motion you are considering.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 02:31 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
For whom will time slow down (according to your understanding of Physics) the person on Mars or the person on Earth?


Clocks slows down, to a greater or lesser degree, for EVERYTHING that is in motion (relative to your chosen preferred frame, be it the CMB, or whatever).
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 02:33 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
This seems to contradict what you are saying now


How? Why does it seem that way? Don't forget to read the WHOLE paragraph.. And don't overlook the scarequotes, either.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 03:25 pm
Take a rock and put it on the ground. Unless acted upon by a force, it won't move. Why not? Because, ya might say, the earth's gravity "holds" it in place.

Put that same rock on the moon. Or Mars. Or Jupiter. Same thing, in each case.

Gravitation is one CONSTANT force acting on all things in all of those environments.

Acceleration is "absolute" motion in all of those frames of reference also. On each of those planets it takes a force to get anything "moving against gravity."

See the point?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 03:30 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Clocks slows down, to a greater or lesser degree, for EVERYTHING that is in motion (relative to your chosen preferred frame, be it the CMB, or whatever).


This is exactly what SR says (as long as you accept that everything is in motion compared to other frames of reference).

There is really nothing more to discuss now.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 03:38 pm
@layman,
In GR, the notion of "inertial" motion is reversed. A planet orbiting the sun is said, in SR, to be "accelerating" because it is constantly changing direction and sometimes speed, too.

In GR, that planet is said to be in "free fall," which is, in GR, "inertial motion" from what I understand. Whatever you call it, it is gravity that causes it to follow the path that it does, and move at the speed that it moves.

Not particularly relevant to either LR or SR, on the surface, anyway, but kinda interesting that the same motion is inertial under one theory and accelerated under another. There could be something deeper there to understand, but I wouldn't know.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 03:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
This is exactly what SR says (as long as you accept that everything is in motion compared to other frames of reference).


They are hardly "exactly" the same from the viewpoint of explaining physical reality (and many other ways, for that matter).
Quote:

There is really nothing more to discuss now.


OK, fair enough. But why do you say that?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 03:44 pm
@layman,
Quote:
A planet orbiting the sun is said, in SR, to be "accelerating" because it is constantly changing direction and sometimes speed, too.


This isn't SR. This is Isaac Newton. It is also very easy to prove by experiment using a scale (to measure force) a length of string and a piece of metal. You whirl the string around your head in a circle and measure the rotation speed. Then you see what force the scale measures.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 03:55 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You seem to think that you are smarter than Albert Einstein


No, I don't. Not by a long-shot. Nor did I think I'm any where near the league of Henrik Lorentz or Henri Poincare, both geniuses (and both far better mathematicians than Einstein, for whatever that's worth). Both of them (and many other brilliant men, for that matter) disagree with Al about SR.

Go figure, eh? I'm just a poor boy trying to make as much sense out of all these differing views as I can, ya know?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 04:00 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
This isn't SR. This is Isaac Newton


On this topic their views are identical. Al completely accepted Newton's definition of inertial motion (for SR purposes).
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 04:02 pm
@layman,
Lorentz's work came before Einstein. He came around and eventually promoted Einstein's work on General Relativity.

Lorentz wrote:
Einstein's theory has another marked advantage over mine. Whereas I have not been able to obtain for the equations referred to moving axes exactly the same form as for those which apply to a stationary system, Einstein has accomplished this by means of a system of new variables slightly different from those which I have introduced.


Lorentz wrote:
The total eclipse of the sun of May 29, resulted in a striking confirmation of the new theory of the universal attractive power of gravitation developed by Albert Einstein, and thus reinforced the conviction that the defining of this theory is one of the most important steps ever taken in the domain of natural science.


Poncaire died in 1912 before General Relativity had past its tests and become scientifically accepted.

What about Steven Hawking and Neil DeGrasse Tyson? The giants in the field of Physics today all base their work on General Relativity.


layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 04:09 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
What about Steven Hawking and Neil DeGrasse Tyson? The giants in the field of Physics today all base their work on General Relativity.


Except just now, in passing, I've haven't directed a word toward GR. I have been talking about SR, not GR. GR also rejects SR, by the way.

Al was never happy with SR, for a number of reasons. Within a year or two, he devoted himself to trying to overcome it (and had basically rejected it as an acceptable theory).

Well, I did also post, and briefly discuss, an article on the topic of Newtonian gravity vs the geometrical interpretation of GR as it pertains to the speed of gravity. But someone else brought up the topic.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 04:19 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Lorentz's work came before Einstein. He came around and eventually promoted Einstein's work on General Relativity.


And, to return the favor, Al eventually came around and agreed with Lorentz that there MUST be an aether.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 04:44 pm
@maxdancona,
GR is under severe threat due to it's supposed inability to explain the increasing rate of universal expansion. Hence resort to such dubious inventions as "dark matter" and "dark energy." Interestingly, a recent paper claimed that the problem could be resolved if SR were abandoned as a theory of motion and one with absolute relativity (neo-lorentzian) were adopted instead:

Quote:
Implications of an Absolute Simultaneity Theory for Cosmology and Universe Acceleration

An alternate Lorentz transformation, Absolute Lorentz Transformation (ALT), has similar kinematics to special relativity yet maintains absolute simultaneity in the context of a preferred reference frame. In this study, it is shown that ALT is compatible with current experiments to test Lorentz invariance only if the proposed preferred reference frame is locally equivalent to the Earth-centered non-rotating inertial reference frame, with the inference that in an ALT framework, preferred reference frames are associated with centers of gravitational mass. ...

Applying this theoretical framework to cosmological data produces a scenario of universal time contraction in the past. In this scenario, past time contraction would be associated with increased levels of blueshifted light emissions from cosmological objects when viewed from our current perspective...Adjusting for the effects of time contraction on a redshift–distance modulus diagram produces a linear distribution of supernovae over the full redshift spectrum that is consistent with a non-accelerating universe.


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0115550[/size]
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 04:48 pm
@layman,
Also interesting is the fact that John Stuart Bell said the easiest way to resolve a lot of conflicts and problems in QM would be to resort to lorentzian relativity.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 05:12 pm
@layman,
Quote:
“It may well be that a relativistic version of [quantum] theory, while Lorentz invariant andlocal at the observational level, may be necessarily non-local and with a preferred frame (or aether) at the fundamental level..

I would say that the cheapest resolution is something like going back to relativity as it was before Einstein, when people like Lorentz and Poincare´ thought that there was an aether—a preferred frame of reference—but that our measuring instruments were distorted by motion in such a way that we could not detect motion through the aether. Now, in that way you can imagine that there is a preferred frame of reference, and in this preferred frame of reference things do go faster than light...Behind the apparent Lorentz invariance of the phenomena, there is a deeper level which is not Lorentz invariant… [This] pre-Einstein position of Lorentz and Poincare´, Larmor and Fitzgerald, was perfectly coherent, and is not inconsistent with relativity theory. The idea that there is an aether, and these Fitzgerald contractions and Larmor dilations occur, and that as a result the instruments do not detect motion through the aether–that is a perfectly coherent point of view.”(J.S. Bell)

http://www-e.unimagdeburg.de/mertens/teaching/seminar/themen/AJP001261.pdf
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 06:49 pm
@layman,
The article on the speed of gravity which I previously posted also suggested that reversion to absolute simultaneity could help solves some particularly stubborn problems in various areas of physics:

Quote:
Although faster-than-light force propagation speeds do violate Einstein special relativity (SR), they are in accord with Lorentzian relativity, which has never been experimentally distinguished from SR—at least, not in favor of SR. Indeed, far from upsetting much of current physics, the main changes induced by this new perspective are beneficial to areas where physics has been struggling, such as explaining experimental evidence for non-locality in quantum physics, the dark matter issue in cosmology, and the possible unification of forces. Recognition of a faster-than-lightspeed propagation of gravity, as indicated by all existing experimental evidence, may be the key to taking conventional physics to the next plateau.


http://able2know.org/topic/301703-11#post-6071008

Could it be that Al (GR) needs to be saved from Al (SR)?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2015 07:34 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Al was never happy with SR, for a number of reasons.


One reason was that he apparently saw no satisfactory solution to the twin paradox. The argument had raged on for 10 years, with multiple "solutions" proposed, but, although later suggesting that they were all inadequate, he never said a word about the topic until AFTER he fully developed GR.

He then offered a GR solution, which seemed to magically call forth, on command, "fictitious gravitational fields" and relied upon the (new) equivalency principle. Modern physicists don't seem to think it resolved much:

Quote:
The Equivalence Principle analysis of the twin paradox does not use any real gravity, and so does not use any General Relativity. (General Relativity is the study of real gravitational fields, not pseudo ones, so it has nothing to say about the twin paradox). Nevertheless, what General Relativity does say about real gravitational fields does hold in a restricted sense for pseudo gravitational fields. The one thing we need here is that time runs slower as you descend into the potential well of a pseudo force field. We can use that fact to our advantage when analysing the twin paradox. But it needs to be emphasised that we are not using any actual General Relativity here, and no one ever needs to, to analyse the paradox. We are simply grabbing a result about real gravitational fields from General Relativity, because we know (from other work) that it does apply to a pseudo gravitational field.


http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SR/TwinParadox/twin_gr.html
0 Replies
 
 

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