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diesel cars - the dilemma

 
 
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 09:02 pm
"Diesels the cars of th immediate future""
has pretty well run its course

However, i'm not dropping diesels. Quite the contrary. The issue is even more salient now than it was back in May. The following article sets the tone of a new thread called

"THE DIESEL DILEMMA"
It is taken from the following article. (I'll identify it later)

Call me a sucker, but I honestly came away from the North American International Auto Show believing some of the most talented minds in the industry are taking this Partnership for a New Generation Vehicle (PNGV) business quite seriously.

General Motors Corp. is ready to put a second-generation nickel-metal-hydride battery in the EV1. Ford Motor Co. has taken enough weight out of the P2000 to reach 63 mpg (3.73L/100 km) with a lean 1.2L 4-cyl. engine. Chrysler has a diesel-electric hybrid that can propel a plastic-body Intrepid 70 miles (3.44L/100km) on a gallon of diesel fuel. Toyota is upping production for its Prius electric/gasoline hybrid. And just about everyone is going ga-ga over the fuel cell advances coming out of this Ballard outfit in Vancouver, BC (see story, p.75).

There's only one problem: diesel engines. Carol Browner and her clean air cops at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency have made it very hard for the largest automotive market in the world to accept them.

The National Ambient Air Quality regulations, which will take effect early in the 21st century, are especially strict on particulates, those microscopic specks of soot that diesel exhaust throws into the air, although in considerably lower concentrations than a decade ago.

But diesels, it turns out, may be the key to PNGV's mission.

We're talking about an evolution. We won't go from 5.9L V-8's muscling massive sport/utilities at 15 mpg (15.7 L/100 km) to environmentally pure fuel cells overnight. To get there from here, we will need diesels.

"We could use something else, but the direct-injection diesel is really the one that started getting us to the fuel-efficiency we were looking for," says Chrysler Corp. Executive Vice President Thomas C. Gale, speaking about the Dodge Intrepid ESX2, Chrysler's most recent tangible prototype derived from its PNGV-backed research.

Look at the sequence of GM's advanced propulsion strategy. First comes a nickel-metal hydride battery for EV1 and the S-10 electric truck. Then comes a series hybrid, featuring an electric motor charged by the world's most efficient gas-turbine generator.

We're talking 60 mpg (3.9 L/100 km) on reformulated gasoline, 0 to 60 mph (0 to 96 km/h) acceleration of 9 seconds and a combined battery-turbine range of 350 miles (560 km).

Yet to reach the next level, which GM defines as 80 mpg (2.9 L/100 km), a range of 550 miles (880 km) and 0 to 60 acceleration of 7 seconds, it will take a direct-injection diesel.

Kenneth R. Baker, vice president of GM's global research and development operations, says Amoco is working with the world's largest automaker to develop lower-sulfur forms of gasoline and purer grades of diesel fuel that would generate fewer particulates and less nitrous oxide.

But unless there's a more forgiving regulatory attitude toward diesel engines, there's no way to achieve the type of fuel economy levels that could make a difference in slowing the increase of CO2 emissions.

Sure we can achieve some fuel- economy improve-ment from hybrids based on direct-injection

gasoline engines. One can argue that with gasoline prices expected to remain flat or even fall over the next two decades, which is the outlook of the Energy Information Administration, 50 to 60 mpg would be good enough.

Maybe. Still it's unclear whether the current regulatory agenda will accommodate such a compromise.

"Even direct-injection gasoline engines can put out high enough levels of particulates that they would not comply with recently enacted air quality standards," says John H. Johnson, professor of mechanical engineering at Michigan Technical University in Houghton, MI. Mr. Johnson has served as senior consultant to the National Academy of Sciences Diesel Impact Study Committee.

Sooner or later environmentalists and politicians are going to have to acknowledge the trade-off between our current obsession with eliminating all hydrocarbon emissions and any credible attempt to reduce greenhouse gases.

It's wonderful that everyone and their uncles are thumping their chests about 1998 models certified to meet California's Low-Emission Vehicle threshold in advance. But stacking one catalytic converter on top of another does nothing to improve fuel economy. One could argue that as these super-clean LEVs, or even Ultra Low Emission Vehicles, begin to filter into our commuting fleets, motorists might start driving more miles per year. Hey, we're doing our part, we'll smugly assume. The poster in the dealership says I'm driving the cleanest car on the road.

Indeed, the air will be cleaner, but our CO2 levels will continue to rise.

Maybe it doesn't matter. For most of us global warming is either a hoax or some abstract scientific problem that won't wreak serious havoc in our life time.

But if there ever is a global consensus about containing greenhouse gases, how will the U.S. ever convince countries like China and Brazil that they need to sign on, when we effectively outlaw the very technology that can get the job done?

And if we block the evolution of diesels, the commercial viability of fuel cells - which may solve both the hydrocarbon and CO2 dilemmas - may be something the industry is still dreaming about at the North American International Auto Show of 2020.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 09:50 pm
Forgive me, but I don't understand what people are getting upset about. Nobody is trying to "block the evolution of diesels".

Your EPA is introducing regulations for low sulfur diesel and stricter emmision control.

There is nothing bad about that.

The industry is, mostly, happy to comply.

Diesel engines are not under threat.
0 Replies
 
Jarlaxle
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 06:38 pm
Except the new engines don't last as long (the new ULSD eats injector pumps), cost much more, & burn more fuel while making less power. Some upgrade.
0 Replies
 
Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2004 09:47 am
The current EPA regulations HAVE stifled diesel use and development in the US, the truck I own, a 4 cyl nissan frontier that gets 25-28mpg with its 2.4 liter gas engine, the same truck is available with a diesel that gets over 30 mpg almost everywhere BUT the US.

The diesel is a better truck engine as well, it has more low end torque.
0 Replies
 
curtis73
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 09:55 pm
Adrian wrote:
Forgive me, but I don't understand what people are getting upset about. Nobody is trying to "block the evolution of diesels".

Your EPA is introducing regulations for low sulfur diesel and stricter emmision control.

Diesel engines are not under threat.


Strongly disagree. First of all, the big threat is not coming from EPA, its coming from CARB. The only diesel car available in CA is the VW, and it is phasing those out over the next few years citing [paraphrased] the general public's willingness to believe that legislators know more about building cars than car manufacturers.

In my opinion, CARB should be put on Tshirts that say, "I support terrorism." Their actions have not only caused the air that I breathe to become sickening, they have not let us reduce our dependency on on foreign oil. And we wonder why CARB and EPA are backing George W. in November? The legislators are listening to the loudest voices. The loudest voices are envirnomentalists (who couldn't define "smog" if they had a dictionary) and the lobbyists who are paid to support their cause. The auto makers have loud voices, but who is going to listen to the big business of evil polluters? No one evidently.

The diesel engine IS (unless some genius comes up with something soon) by fact, physics, and science, the greatest hope we have of acheiving our short-term (and maybe long term) goals of better air quality, reduction of [foreign] fossil fuel consumption, and better fuel efficiency... but because some dolphin hugger thinks diesel smells bad, it has to go away. The heresay and conjecture that has been fed to the general public places diesel popularity somewhere between boogers and pocket lint.

Safer, easier to produce, ship, and sell, fewer by products from its production, fewer emissions DURING production, cheaper to buy, better efficiency, better reliability of the engines, better for the environment (currently considering the CO2 and HC issues of greenhouse), and a damn swell cocktail on a hot summer evening..... But they put out little particulates that the CARB and EPA have deemed evil. What they refuse to acknowledge is that those little particulates are relatively harmless. They fall to the ground and are about as damaging as a drop of urine.

I say we all pee on the street until the CARB listens to us. We'll have a "Pee-in" Smile
0 Replies
 
nadman10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Dec, 2004 08:07 pm
I've been saying that about terrorism for a while. IMHO, Biodiesel is the way to go 110%
0 Replies
 
imapom
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 10:16 pm
You guys will soon see the benefits of Diesel engines when fuel prices hit US$1.60 a litre (roughly what they are in Europe now) and you can go 500 miles in your 2.0-litre Audi at 100mph without thinking about it. With the air-con on.

Not saying they're the best things on the road, but they make a convincing case for themselves.
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 10:38 pm
Jarlaxle wrote:
Except the new engines don't last as long (the new ULSD eats injector pumps), cost much more, & burn more fuel while making less power. Some upgrade.


Rubbish. The low sulphur diesel may damage seals in the pump but once they are replaced the problem doesn't reoccur. It is also only an issue with engines made before low sulphur was introduced. The cost per engine has increased marginally but vehicle prices haven't really been effected. Engines designed to run on low sulphur make more power and use less fuel. That's the whole point of a technological development.
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2004 10:41 pm
Karzak wrote:
The current EPA regulations HAVE stifled diesel use and development in the US, the truck I own, a 4 cyl nissan frontier that gets 25-28mpg with its 2.4 liter gas engine, the same truck is available with a diesel that gets over 30 mpg almost everywhere BUT the US.

The diesel is a better truck engine as well, it has more low end torque.


The reason that vehicle is not available with the diesel engine has NOTHING to do with low sulphur diesel. It's called "consumer demand".

If people don't want it, then don't try to sell it.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Mar, 2005 12:57 pm
Bio diesel HMMMMMMMMMMM?
I just found this forum and haven't had time to really look at all the posts, but I have been researching bio diesel and making it at home. Seems real easy. I did a web search and it gave me links to Doctor Diesel, a book called From the Fryer to the Fueltank, and Fuel Miester. I also found a link to the Listerol diesel generators (old school diesel motoers still being produced now known as Listeroids). Burning B100 (100%) bio diesel instead of fossil diesel would cut emmissions a Whopping 90% Exclamation plus it dosen't stink like diesel (smells like french fries or donuts). Worst thing is you may have to change your fuel filters a couple of times in the beginning as the bio tends to clean the fuel system, and it is best to run it in a '93 or newer vehicle as the older seals may breakdown from the bio and newer seals are designed for this. Tell OPEC to put this in their tailpipe and smoke it Exclamation
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