19
   

Volkswagen Cheated Emissions Testing

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2015 01:10 pm
@Leadfoot,
This study (but without naming the three involved cars/motors) was published on 30.05.2015 (2014.05.30) In-use emissions testing of light-duty diesel vehicles in the U.S.

Another one - NOx control technologies for Euro 6 diesel passenger cars was published a couple of days ago.

They do quite a lot studies, which seem to get little notice: CO2 emissions from new passenger cars in the EU: Car manufacturers’ performance in 2014, Assessment of Heavy-Duty Natural Gas Vehicle Emissions: Implications and Policy Recommendations, Assessment of leading electric vehicle promotion activities in United States cities ... ... ...

One reason might be that it is a "green source", fighting climate change.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2015 07:41 am
@engineer,
Interesting story. And to confirm this isn't a laughing matter they end with this:

Quote:
Nitrous oxide is N2O, or laughing gas. This is not found in diesel fumes.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2015 09:39 am
@parados,
This entire episode is a prfect example of the fact that, if left to its own devices, industries WILL NEVER do whats right. Hence, governments were conceived by humans in order to keep em on the path.

Also, governments show that they are imperfect in their oversight roles because many are in the pockets of these same industries.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2015 09:47 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Also, governments show that they are imperfect in their oversight roles because many are in the pockets of these same industries.

And people walk back and forth between government and industry constantly. To too great an extent it is the same people on both sides, and they are always looking out for themselves.

How good a job in the private sector is that government worker going to get in return for cheating the taxpayers? Way too often that is the question.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2015 10:03 am
@hawkeye10,
biggest point is that industry rarely does the "right thing".

Lawyers do the side switching all the time.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2015 10:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Interesting. So it sounds like this issue has been hiding in plain sight for awhile, like the insanity of U.S. ethanol mandates in gasoline.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2015 12:39 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
So it sounds like this issue has been hiding in plain sight for awhile,
Well, they needed some time to identify the three tested cars.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2015 06:40 pm
This is a criminal conspiracy, and an aggravating factor is that it's at the expense of public safety. I hope that lots of people get stiff jail sentences - certainly the managers and engineers, but also secretaries who only took notes and must be regarded as willful participants. You want to break the law? Then you can pay when you get caught.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 04:12 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

This is a criminal conspiracy, and an aggravating factor is that it's at the expense of public safety. I hope that lots of people get stiff jail sentences - certainly the managers and engineers, but also secretaries who only took notes and must be regarded as willful participants. You want to break the law? Then you can pay when you get caught.


Um, I am thinking no, I am thinking that the problem is unreasonable and unmeetable government standards. Engineers understand that you cant get something for nothing. Durability, emissions, gas mileage and performance, these are the things that engineers have to work with, making one better means making something else worse. The only thing that changes this equation is technical improvement. Lawmakers constantly pass law knowing that the law can not be complied with given current human knowledge, they say to themselves and to us "they will figure it out, they will get smarter". We, sometimes that does not happen, or does not happen fast enough.

From what I have been reading I think that diesel emission rules can not be complied with because diesel technology has not improved enough to allow it to happen. In that case one of two things needed to happen, either no more diesels or the law needs to be changed. I vote we make the law reasonable. I also vote that we dont jail people for trying to get by in a world were the laws are not reasonable. This strikes me as inhumane.
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 05:08 am
@hawkeye10,
There are diesels out there that meet the emissions standards. The idea that the poor engineers can't make a diesel car with those onerous standards is clearly wrong, but even if it was true, it is incumbent on them to say they can't do it, not cheat the system. I've been in cities where you can see the air because of the pollution and where you can see how acid rain is historic landmarks. I'd vote no diesels before I vote to weaken the emission standards. Just to be clear, the VW diesels in question weren't just over the limit, they were 10-40x over the limit. There is a link earlier computing the additional pollution from VW cars matching the entire pollution output of England.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 05:40 am
@engineer,
Quote:
The idea that the poor engineers can't make a diesel car with those onerous standards is clearly wrong

I am keeping an open mind on this

Quote:
but even if it was true, it is incumbent on them to say they can't do it, not cheat the system.
agreed

Quote:
the VW diesels in question weren't just over the limit, they were 10-40x over the limit. There is a link earlier computing the additional pollution from VW cars matching the entire pollution output of England.

Ya, but Americans generally dont buy diesels, there are not enough of these things in America that it would matter if they got fixed or not in the vast scheme of things.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 06:02 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
A Guardian analysis found those US vehicles would have spewed between 10,392 and 41,571 tonnes of toxic gas into the air each year, if they had covered the average annual US mileage.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/22/vw-scandal-caused-nearly-1m-tonnes-of-extra-pollution-analysis-shows

Wake me when you have a fact. This is clearly a guess.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 06:20 am
@hawkeye10,
It is a computation with a fixed set of assumptions, hardly a guess. Science works that way all the time. You can challenge the assumptions (was it 10x or 40x the emissions limit?) or the math, but the technique is sound.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 09:23 am
@engineer,
Aaaaaand two more high-profile departures from VW/Audi.
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 09:44 am
@hawkeye10,
The people elect representatives and they make laws. If you try to break the law and cover it up, you belong in jail.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 09:59 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
Aaaaaand two more high-profile departures from VW/Audi.
Today? From Audi or from VW? (Or Volkswagen group?)

All we know here is that yesterday three (more) managers at Porsche and Audi have been "fired".
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 11:39 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Two of Volkswagen group's highest-ranking engineers will be forced to quit as the German carmaker is pushing steps to clear up the diesel emissions scandal, Bild reported on Thursday, citing unnamed company sources.

Audi's R&D boss Ulrich Hackenberg, a long-time VW brand executive and Porsche's engine chief Wolfgang Hatz will be dismissed at a meeting of the supervisory board on Friday, the newspaper said.

VW and Porsche declined comment while Audi couldn't be reached for comment.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/us-audi-scandal-idUSKCN0RO19S20150924
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2015 12:01 pm
@DrewDad,
Yes. That's what I said. (And additionally some more.) At Audi and Porsche. Yesterday.
Walter Hinteler wrote:
All we know here is that yesterday three (more) managers at Porsche and Audi have been "fired".



And what had been a rumour for a couple of days, is official since a couple of hours: Porsche's CEO Müller is the new CEO of the Volkswagen
Group. (Herbert Diess, Volkswagen CEO, will keep his job, I think - he got it only recently.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2015 11:00 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Everyone worldwide is now a Volkgswagen-beater ...

UK tried to block tougher EU car emission tests
Quote:
[...]
A document obtained by the Observer reveals that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has been advising British MEPs to vote against legislation that would oblige countries to carry out “routine and non-routine” inspections on vehicles’ “real-world” emissions.
[...]
Now it has emerged that Defra has also been lobbying against part of a proposed EU directive that would force member states to establish national testing regimes to catch out those who tried to conceal the damage they were doing. The proposed legislation – the national emissions ceiling directive – is designed to “ensure that policies and measures are effective in delivering emission reductions under real operating conditions”, according to the European commission.
[...]
Germany acted similar as did all other European countries with car factories within their borders [my opinion].
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2015 11:26 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The idea, to make the test on the Diesels, came from a German (Peter Mock, head of European International Council on Clean Transportation, based in Germany). He decided to carry out on-the-road tests in the USA since the emissions regulations there are much stricter than here in Europe. And they done by John ... German at the West Virginia University’s Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emissions.
0 Replies
 
 

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