Aliens (a quasi-serious topic)

I find it interesting that people assume life could only evolve on earth like planets and be dependent on oxygen .... why?

it could be wildly different. Bacteria survive in the deep ocean in the incredible heat from volcanic vents, with no oxygen at all - on another world something like this could have evolved into the intelligent life form, where gravity is stronger and oxygen scarce/non existent, maybe poisonous to that particular life form. They would consider our world hostile and incapable of supporting life.

I know who Tim Allen is, as my Tool Time and Santa Clause references must have shown.

In the year of the Tourists
The hosts shall descend upon us
From the east like a plague of locusts--
So saith the Wise Alaundo.

What frightens me is the prospect that there is a widely settled alien supra-culture with good communications which will discover our "primitive and charming" planet, and that we will subsequently be overrun by alien "grays" with tiny, tiny digital cameras, complaining about the accomodations, and telling us how picturesque we are . . .

Heh heh...if aliens did descend on Washington, I think it would go something like this:

"Do you all have green cards?"

"Green cards? We don't need no stinking green cards!"

Then they would pull out ray guns and kill the entire administration.

It is spelled descention. But that is the opposite of evolution, we evolved from quadrupeds. I know that you know this, but your wording is backwards.



Intelligent centaurs would soon de-evolve and lose their horselike ability to run because their intelligence could be used to derive tools and safer ways of life that removed the threat of wild animals so there would be no need to run fast for long periods of time. Also, a centuar is very arguably less capable of manipulating tools.



There is not enough evidence to prove either side, but there are certainly logical reasons to support the hypothesis that life would either follow a similar track or follow a potentially completely different path. I have already provided logical reasons for why one might argue that life would tend to follow a similar path, although I am not arguing that, I am merely agruing that such an argument is very valid. Refer to my last post if you want to know the details.



Yes, but populations which are too small will not be able to evolve because without a certain level of diversity any selective pressures could wipe out the majority of the civilization causing it to become extinct. Also, the existence of a species is not the only prerequisite for evolution...there must also be selective pressure. Without selective pressure, the species diversifies which is de-evolution.



This is false. Selective pressure has nothign to do with death, selective pressure is anything that affects the chances of an organism's offspring to survive long enough to have it's own offspring. Life after final reproduction is not selected for because it is not important. But if you remove all selective pressure, then it means that everyone has an equal chance of producing offspring which will reproduce, which means that no traits can possibly be selected for. It is not the same as evolution, because evolution refers to traits whcih an entire species gains. De-evolution is when the species loses commonality between traits...in other words, every organism of the "species" could have different traits...and they are then no longer the same species.



I must wonder if you really understand the concept of how much energy would be required by a civilzation for millions of years. Anyway...care to enumerate how FOOD is the easy part? Obviously you'd want to have farms, but how are you going to get all the necessary water, oxygen, and sunlight to support them when you don't know if you'll be travelling through a region of space devoide of all three for potentially millions of years?

JOCKO HOMO
Devo

they tell us that
we lost our tails
evolving up
from little snails
i say it's all
just wind in sails
are we not men?
we are DEVO!
we're pinheads now
we are not whole
we're pinheads all
jocko homo
are we not men?
D-E-V-O
monkey men all
in business suit
teachers and critics
all dance the poot
are we not men?
we are DEVO!
are we not men?
D-E-V-O
god made man
but he used the monkey to do it
apes in the plan
we're all here to prove it
i can walk like an ape
talk like an ape
i can do what a monkey can do
god made man
but a monkey supplied the glue
we must repeat
o.k. let's go

good up until abotu here...

they tell us that
we lost our tails
evolving up
from little snails
i say it's all
just wind in sails
are we not men?
we are DEVO!
we're pinheads now
we are not whole
we're pinheads all
jocko homo
are we not men?
D-E-V-O
monkey men all
in business suit
teachers and critics
all dance the poot
are we not men?
we are DEVO!

and what's DEVO?

Devo were a new-wave band from the late 70s-80's who were mostly listened to by nerds like myself interested in things like de-evolution (hence their name). They had a minor hit with 'Whip It', and had a fondness for wearing flower pots on their heads, and dressing in amusing pseudo-futuristic costumes. They even made a low-budget movie called The Truth About Devolution. One member, Mark Mothersbaugh, is now a prominent film soundtrack composer. http://www.clubdevo.com/

whip it, whip it good, was that them?

That would be them stuh.

Okay, not gonna do the splitquote thing as the topic is spreading out.

1. Centaur-esque intelligent life might lose teh ability to run fast, but there's no reason to suspect they'd automatically lose their 4 legs.

2. Yes, a seperate life could follow a very similar path as our own development (bilaterally symmetrical bipedal form. Essentially humanoid.), but it is just as likely that any other form which allows for progress in brain development to evolve. So therefore stumbling across a new species that happens to have evolved in teh same body form is unlikely.

3. I said death does not have to be a part of the process. A relatively small population would still have natural selection. It would still have genetic drift. It would still evolve. A new trait which appears via drift would be *more* likely to be carried on due to the limit of options in terms of mating (think Kalkaska Michigan). Unless reproduction is done via lottery, selective pressure is *never* removed completely.

4. Again, there is no such thing as de-evolution. If a population has multiple traits and those traits eventually split the population into two groups that cannot or do not breed, then you've got two species. That's evolution. And now you have two species evolving independantly (think African Cichlids). Evolution has multiple mechanisms at work all the time.

5. Yes, I have a rough idea how much energy would be needed. And I know that via our technology it would be impossible to do so.

6. Water is oxygen and hydrogen (assuming their food grows in a like environment to ours). The oxygen and hydrogen is used but not used up. The plant dies. The elements that make it up are recycled. The only actual loss of matter would be the slow bleed of gasses through the hull (presuming a hull) of the ship. Those could be harvested along the way. Sunlight is just light. Turn on a lightbulb. As I said, if you have the energy, the rest falls into place.

7. I don't know how you've calculated the energy consumption of a fictional alien race traveling in an undefined vessel at an undefined speed along an undefined course. But I think a species intellegent enough to navigate between stars might be able to plot a route which guaranteed them enough hydrogen to make the trip.

it would be helpful if you just at least quoted the last statement because i dont like to open multiple windows and scroll back and forth



I did not say that it would be implausible for life to evolve in other forms. My point was that you cannot make statements like, "there is NO logical reason to believe life would tend to be bipedal" or "it is JUST as likely that any other form would be intelligent"....because without having evidence from other intelligent races, we have no evidence, we do not know enough about the topic to start talking about probability...certainly it would be possible to have aliens in other forms, but we just don't know how likely or unlikely it is.



i was giving an extreme example, selective pressure can be drastically reduced...and reducing it slows down evolution.

call it whatever you want, i think de-evolution is a good term for it, because it literally just removes traits from the species which were previuosly selected for...and cannot add new traits. evolution is the convergence or change of a species which is common to the species. when the changes are not common to the species or to distinctive groups, its fundamentally different.



ok, so you are saying that with a large stockpile of water, plants, and animals could be self-sufficient? it almost sounds plausible; you could use electrolysis and fuel cells to get electricity from the water, you could drink the water, use the electricity to power UV lights to make the plants grow, use the plants to feed animals, then eat the animals/plants/water. then use the excrement as fertilizer. the plants convert our carbon dioxide back into oxygen. basically, you want to create an entire planet dynamic on your spaceship.

well, you're wrong it wouldn't be self sufficient, but i suppose if you had an extremely large stockpile of ice or somethign that you could use as reserves for thousands of years while you travelled from asteriod to planet to whatever collecting as much as you could...it would be possible, at least it sounds that way to me.

but weren't you originally trying to prove that it would be IMPROBABLE for aliens to visit us...and now you're looking for possible ways that they COULD!

Hi folks, it's Captain X'ytthh of the starship Ker'plach. I have taken over cavfancier in order to give you all a message from our people. Stop eating Philly Cheesesteaks. You know how bad those things are for you? We didn't need hydrogen-propelled ships to get here. We simply harnessed the natural gas emmisions from the average American and refined it into super-charged rocket fuel. The best thing about it was that you gave it away for free. It seems you still have much to learn. We'll be back when you are ready.

Which is exactly my point. We do not know how likely it is. Nothing has indicated humanoid life is the primary format for intelligence. Our sample of intelligent life is too small.



Whereas small population speeds it up. Perhaps they balance. I see your point tho'.



Why not? What happened to Genetic Drift?



I'm not entirely sure I understand that one. Are you saying that speciation is not evolution? I'm gonna have to ask for a rewording to make sure I gotcha.



Biospheres are almost up to par here under our technology.



Erm... No, I'd stick with a Bussard Ramjet or some unknown source of fuel. You'd be just tossing your power into heat production if you used water electrolysis and fuel cells.



Yup.



Not if you were splitting the water for fuel. no. See my previous comments on how you need energy and the rest falls into place.



I already have the reasons why it would be improbable. I'm beta testing it. (as I wish movie producers would do once in a while) Checking to see if there are any big holes in my premise.

Ok let me give you an example. Let's say we are talking about evolution of jelly beans. We start with a bag of red jellybeans that is one species. Being red used to help them survive.

Now the people who eat jellybeans really like to eat the red ones. But some of the jellybeans are born slightly off-color, they are dark maroon, and nobody likes to eat them. The dark maroon ones survive long enough to mate, and their offspring are also dark maroon. After a while, only black jellybeans exist.

So that was a classic example of evolution; the species has changed from red to black. It has converged to something that most members of the species share.

Now let's start over, without selective pressure (still red beans though)...people don't care what color the jellybeans are. Every now and then, a slightly off color jellybean is still born. We get some maroonish, some yellowish, and some purplish ones. Since there was no selective pressure, after a long while, you will discover that you have jellybeans of every color....they are no longer all red.

Being red was a trait that used to help them survive. But since there was no selective pressure, their traits didn't matter, they de-evolved, and now their color is not a common trait anymore.

I don't know much about this matter, as I said in another thread regarding the universe, but I have thought about this.
While the concept of alien life detecting us is very slim, can it be as slim as non-existent?

I give to you the following hypothesis (NONE of this is in any way based on scientific data, but more on the somewhat haphazard logic constructions taking place in what can be called my brain :wink: )

1. Alien life forms may have developed on planets with a wildly different atmosphere then ours. This would seem to suggest there may be more then a few planets out there with an intelligent alien life form.

2. While perhaps many life forms may be very satisfied in staying on their planet, the process of overpopulation and depletion of natural resources may eventually force most planetary populations which have evolved to this point to look towards the boundaries of space.

3. A logic approach would be that said civilizations send out many ships with one of a couple of mission objectives.
I explore
II make (when possible) contact with other life forms.
III send back data regarding space in order to increase scientific knowledge (arguably this is what we are doing right now)
IV search for rich mineral deposits.
V search for new areas for colonisation
VI search for new planets to conquer and demolish (xenophobes?)

Several of said objectives may purposefully, others may accidently lead to the discovery of other life forms.
I'll simplify matters for my own sake now. Let's call our exploring life form Y, and the discovered life form X.
Three different situations.
1. Y discovers X without being discovered themselves.
2. Both alien species discover each other at the same time.
3. X discovers Y without being discovered themselves.

with each, three different scenarios may be the case.
a. Y is significantly more advanced than X.
b. Both planets sprout similar technologically advanced societies (as seen in the broadest possibly meaning : while the technologies themselves may be wildly divergent, the species are well matched against each other.)
c. X is significantly more advanced than Y.

In case of 1a. The advanced spying life form may simply be content to watch or move along. No change.
It may decide to make peaceful contacts and exchange technologies and rare minerals etc., being the possible beginning of interplanetary trade. This could lead to an economic flux on the homeplanet (of course, this is dependent on the society that has evolved there, but presumably most civilisations fare well if they suddenly get access to otherwise rare and difficult to get minerals (barring a mineral that in any way undermines the value of the economic trading mechanism, I won;t go into this).
It may decide to attack and conquer, which it can presumably accomplish easily, being that they have surprise on their side and superior technology to boot. They might do so if they desire (a) technologies, b)minerals, c) colonizing space or d) simply the extermination of said life form. In case of victory, there may well be a positive flux on spacetravel as far as a) b) or c) are concerned. In case of d), the life form will continue in search for more planets to destroy.


1) b) Again, Y may elect to spy, but must be cautious unless they want to be discovered themselves. No change, perhaps Y will simply stay a long distance away from X's planetary system.
Or Y may decide to make peaceful contact. This might well lead to a massive influx of technologies and/ or minerals, thus enhancing both societies enormously. In turn, both societies may be stimulated to explore even more and build up a larger trade network.
Finally Y may attack, hoping surprise will aid them in conquering the planet. Of course, many factors have to be taken in contemplation here (size of planet, different atmospheres, defense systems etc.) but assuming Y is reasoning and calculating they may overcome said difficulties and win quickly, in which case the 1) a) situation may occur.
More likely may be a protracted war, with maybe both Y and X travelling through space in'order to find minerals, technologies and or allies to defeat the opponent.
Or X may win, in which case they are very likely to send out their owen fleet in order to retaliate against Y. Y in turn may try to find other resources in order to fight X again. Both may therefore start to explore space faster.

1)c) Unlikely. Logically Y would be disinclined to wage war in such circumstances, unless they have way more numbers or something.
They may move on, and leave X be, or they may engage in friendly negotiations.
A cordial agreement may result from contact, or Y being chased away by X. For the first, trade may start stimulating further space exploration. In the second, X may be stimulated into space exploration, and Y may simply continue their search for perhaps less advanced alien life forms.

2 is largely similar to 1. war may be less likely to start, since neither side has the surprise on their side. Therefore, trade may be more likely to start, and may in turn stimulate further space exploration.

3) also has many similarities to 1. a) is unlikely, X may try to put all their defensive systems online before Y has discovered them, or, perhaps, try to flee into space if they are fearful.
b) see 1)b). c) X may decide to obliterate the annoying intruder, or be curious and contact them. Perhaps X will try in turn to invade Y's home system, provided they can discover it by intercepting radio (or any other kind of) communication between the space craft of Y and the home planet. In the first case, X ay be stimulated into (further) space exploration, Y may go looking for other civilizations . In the second case, trade may start. the third will certainly make X become more interested in space travel etc.

Of course, the above is in no way complete and or exhaustive.
I sidestep problems as difference of speech, existing alliances, religious believes, different political systems. Also problems of transporting armies back and forth across space, with problems of feeding them etc. have been sidestepped, but time is not a major issue, because this hypothetical event is not bound to any timeline of any sort.

Also, perhaps, I neglect such helpful things as the ability to calculate where intelligent life forms are likely to exist, or the availability of such Sci-Fi transportation methods as worm holes and the like.
What I try to say is, that, if intelligent societies do manage to find each other over time, there may be a fairly large chance they will be stimulated into further exploration of space. This could lead to a sort of chain reaction, where many life forms quickly scan out all solar systems to find other life forms or something.

It's fairly late here, and I'm tired. Off to bed now.

Naj