Aliens (a quasi-serious topic)

I say this is a quasi-serious topic because it is really just a debate on teh value of a science-fiction theory.

Anyways. I had an ex who was terrified by aliens. She couldn't sleep if the window was open because she would fear that some gray humanoid would try to abduct her. She knew it was unrealistic, but fear is often like that. She couldn't control her fear.

I presented her with my theory (ie: story) on 'aliens':

Earth is a speck. No... not a speck. Earth aspires to be a speck. Our solar system is a speck.

From anywhere else in the galaxy, Sol is an unremarkable dot. Not unlike the many many other dots of the same size and shape and chemical makeup.

We sent a Voyager out past Saturn and told it to turn around for a moment and try to detect life here on Earth. It couldn't.

Now if we assume that an alien life in another system is out there looking for life, the chance that they happen to be looking *this* way is slim at any given moment. The chance that they can actually detect us is even slimmer. Add to that the difficulty in getting here once they detect us? Pitifully slim.

Now let's look at the so-called "grays". Bipedal humanoids with two eyes, a mouth below 'em. jointed arms with elbows. Jointed legs with feet and knees.

Let's assume that life does exist on another planet not too terribly far away. The odds that this life would not only be intelligent, but have remarkably similar body structures to our own?! Now we're just talkin' crazy.

Okay, but there's this. Evolution. Nobody (who likes science) argues it happens. Take humans. Put 'em in space for generations upon generations (the duration it takes to traverse long distances out there for example). We'd be breeding, and presumably still evolving. But rather than evolving to Earth-like conditions, we'd evolve to ones in space.

Low light, microgravity, enclosed spaces, controlled environment, processed food... What might a human evolve to out there?

Well... Big eyes might help us see in the spanse between stars. Artificial lights don't compete with the sun.

Don't need big ears. The furthest you need to hear is across the room or down the hall.

Don't need much for teeth. Food all pre-processed. no hunting.

Don't need much for muscles. Microgravity an' all. machinery to do any drudgery.

Don't need pigment. No sunlight.

In short, these "grays" are humans. Distant relatives. Perhaps they are our decendants coming back from the future* and visiting places where notable events occurred in their past (such as nuclear detonations). Would evolved humans look at us and think us beneath them? Enough so that they would not have moral issues with performing studies on us? Scooping out our bowels to see what we eat and how we live? Tracking us to see our progress?

Or perhaps we have common ancestors? Maybe some primates were taken off Earth and evolved in space?

In any case, it seems to me that a genetic relationship is the only explanation for humanoid visitors so interested in us who happen to be here to see us.

*note: I don't believe in 'time' so I don't consider time travel possible.

Limbo, it is possible that a technological civilization could detect our presence. They could intercept the television signals which are beaming out into eternity. They are almost 70 years out by now. The first signal they'll pick up is the broadcast of Hitler opening the 1936 Olympic games in Munich.



Hmmmmm . . .

This would support the pretense of the Star Trek episode, original series, where they landed on a planet modelled after Nazi Germany.

you could also use this to argue how many other alien races must exist also, i bet we could detect life here now if we did the same test

it is not crazy. we dont have much data on evolution in other environments, jsut what we see on our planet. it may be the case that advanced life is capable of evolving in completely different circumstances than Earth. it also may be the case that advanced life only tends to evolve in circumstances similar to our own planets. even though evolution works on random changes, there is a disticnt possibility that it would follow similar paths on another planet because the goal of survival is still the same and many of the same traits will be selected for because they are universally beneficial. so I would not be surprised if other advanced life was bipedal...a bipedal form is much more suited to having an intelligent mind than a multi-legged creature because it would be more suited to manipulating and creatign things with it's hands, and physical adeptness is not so important in advanced intellectual creatures.

ok, now you are startign to get crazy. people cannot survive in space. perhaps there is an organism that can survive in space, but i highly doubt it...if there were, they would most likely occur only in specific areas like nebulas or something. there is not enoguh resources in open space, hence the name "space". and the pressure is so low that a human would explode, even if they could survive without an energy source for the brain (like oxygen).

not sure what your'e talking about.

completely unsupported thesis

you talk as if there is only one species of aliens. given the size of the universe that we know of (which is likely only a fraction of the actual universe), there is most likely many, many species of aliens. most of them would also not be super-intelligent, either.

there is no evidence that aliens have ever visited our planet...?

completelty different subject here. if you do not believe in time, you simply do not understand the definitino of time. because to disbelieve time is like saying you don't believe that anything exists. and we know that we exist, so, you're wrong.

time travel is possible. [snip]

Limbo, it is possible that a technological civilization could detect our presence. They could intercept the television signals which are beaming out into eternity. They are almost 70 years out by now. The first signal they'll pick up is the broadcast of Hitler opening the 1936 Olympic games in Munich.

Hmmmmm . . .

This would support the pretense of the Star Trek episode, original series, where they landed on a planet modelled after Nazi Germany.

Absolutely true about Trek. Now, consider this. Eventually, should aliens pick up our television signals, they will come across these Trek episodes, and that in itself could possibly influence them to fashion themselves after the Roman Empire, or the old west, or whatever. But, they would only have a fragmented, uninformed interepertation of these models of history. Star Trek could become it's own self-fulfilling prophecy. Hmmm.....

I don't for a moment believe we've had "alien visitations"--apart from the sudden and inexplicable appearance of the Bush family, of course.

Anyway, this is less important than the truth from you Limbo. If yer a dog, how come you got a cat for an avatar, Hmm?

Who is this 'Tim Allen' you speak of? I certainly hope that Trek gets to the aliens before 'Tool Time' or 'The Santa Clause'.

Stuh, it's not that I hang out with Slappy, I just can't get him out of my yard.

limbodog wrote:

stuh505 wrote:

you could also use this to argue how many other alien races must exist also, i bet we could detect life here now if we did the same test

At Saturn? Yes, probably. But think how much further a way another star is compared to Saturn.

what? I did not mention Saturn. Saturn is HARDLY hospitable. You'd have more luck finding it on Europa. I never implied that aliens exist within our solar system.

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stuh505 wrote:

it is not crazy. we dont have much data on evolution in other environments, jsut what we see on our planet. it may be the case that advanced life is capable of evolving in completely different circumstances than Earth. it also may be the case that advanced life only tends to evolve in circumstances similar to our own planets. even though evolution works on random changes, there is a disticnt possibility that it would follow similar paths on another planet because the goal of survival is still the same and many of the same traits will be selected for because they are universally beneficial. so I would not be surprised if other advanced life was bipedal...a bipedal form is much more suited to having an intelligent mind than a multi-legged creature because it would be more suited to manipulating and creatign things with it's hands, and physical adeptness is not so important in advanced intellectual creatures.

if manipulating limbs = good push for intelligence than it would just as happily promote intelligent starfish or intelligent centipedes or intelligent octopi (which I hear are kinda smart). There's not much of a reason to believe intelligence only comes in creatures with knees.

No, this makes no sense. I thought it was obvious, but I will explain why the bipedal form makes sense because I guess it's not. An organism that was extremely intelligent (like humans) would not need to rely so much on the ability to run fast to catch prey, or fight well to defend itself against dangerous animals, because it could use it's cunning to outwit the animals...like we do. We use technology and traps etc to outsmart animals even though we could not beat them physically. Our bipedal form allows us to maintian balance while manipulating objects with our hands, and our 5 fingers allows us to control objects with greater precision. Our intelligence is much less useful if we lack the physical capability to manipulate tools. This is why intelligence encourages the bipedal form.

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stuh505 wrote:

ok, now you are startign to get crazy. people cannot survive in space. perhaps there is an organism that can survive in space, but i highly doubt it...if there were, they would most likely occur only in specific areas like nebulas or something. there is not enoguh resources in open space, hence the name "space". and the pressure is so low that a human would explode, even if they could survive without an energy source for the brain (like oxygen).

Uh... Sorry, thought spaceships were a given.

sorry, it wasnt obvious to me. i am quite literal.

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stuh505 wrote:

not sure what your'e talking about.

If you're in a spaceship travelling through teh vast gaps between stars, you're living in a controlled environment. The survival adaptations could atrophy and it wouldn't interfere with your chances at breeding. They just aren't needed.

Yes, it would take millions or billions of years to travel between many planets. I suppose it would be possible for some alien race to construct a giant spaceship capable of taking a large enough group of aliens that evolution could take place...although what you would see is more likely de-evolution, in other words, where you remove selective pressure so no traits are selected for and this just increases the diversity of the species. But I think the technical implications of such a venture are implausible; how would they reliably get energy and food for the ship and crew over this time period taking billions of years in which they travel through unknown areas of space? It seems there only hope would be to harvest what they could off of asteroids but they are largely devoid of consumable energy sources.

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stuh505 wrote:

completely unsupported thesis

I thought I supported it. But again, it is science fiction, not an attempt at explaining the origination of something I don't think exists.

wasn't your entire point, to try to look at this from a NON fiction perspective to convince your wife that aliens would not visit?

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stuh505 wrote:

you talk as if there is only one species of aliens. given the size of the universe that we know of (which is likely only a fraction of the actual universe), there is most likely many, many species of aliens. most of them would also not be super-intelligent, either.

Because I'm referring to the stories of alien visitors which are called "grays" in the folklore and stories of "abductees".

haven't heard that terminology before...then again, i'm not the type to make conversation in secluded diners in the nevada desert. i do live around a lot of farmers, though.

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stuh505 wrote:

there is no evidence that aliens have ever visited our planet...?

Are you asking me? Or agreeing with me?

i was wondering why you were speaking as if aliens had visited Earth in the past, when we already know that they have not...I thought you were trying to look at this from a logical perspective and merely analyze the feasibility of aliens visiting our planet in the near future.

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stuh505 wrote:

completelty different subject here. if you do not believe in time, you simply do not understand the definitino of time. because to disbelieve time is like saying you don't believe that anything exists. and we know that we exist, so, you're wrong.

Different subject but related to the comment I marked. And disagreeing with you does not make me wrong.

the act of disagreeing with someone certainly does not make either person right or wrong. however, disagreeing with this particular topic does make you wrong...

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stuh505 wrote:

time travel is possible. [snip]

As you said, another subject. And one with an existing thread.

then i shall not comment further

what? I did not mention Saturn. Saturn is HARDLY hospitable. You'd have more luck finding it on Europa. I never implied that aliens exist within our solar system.

No, this makes no sense. I thought it was obvious, but I will explain why the bipedal form makes sense because I guess it's not. An organism that was extremely intelligent (like humans) would not need to rely so much on the ability to run fast to catch prey, or fight well to defend itself against dangerous animals, because it could use it's cunning to outwit the animals...like we do. We use technology and traps etc to outsmart animals even though we could not beat them physically. Our bipedal form allows us to maintian balance while manipulating objects with our hands, and our 5 fingers allows us to control objects with greater precision. Our intelligence is much less useful if we lack the physical capability to manipulate tools. This is why intelligence encourages the bipedal form.

Yes, it would take millions or billions of years to travel between many planets. I suppose it would be possible for some alien race to construct a giant spaceship capable of taking a large enough group of aliens that evolution could take place...

although what you would see is more likely de-evolution, in other words, where you remove selective pressure so no traits are selected for and this just increases the diversity of the species.

But I think the technical implications of such a venture are implausible;

how would they reliably get energy

and food for the ship

and crew over this time period taking billions of years in which they travel through unknown areas of space?

It seems there only hope would be to harvest what they could off of asteroids but they are largely devoid of consumable energy sources.

wasn't your entire point, to try to look at this from a NON fiction perspective to convince your wife that aliens would not visit?

haven't heard that terminology before...then again, i'm not the type to make conversation in secluded diners in the nevada desert. i do live around a lot of farmers, though.

i was wondering why you were speaking as if aliens had visited Earth in the past, when we already know that they have not...I thought you were trying to look at this from a logical perspective and merely analyze the feasibility of aliens visiting our planet in the near future.

the act of disagreeing with someone certainly does not make either person right or wrong. however, disagreeing with this particular topic does make you wrong...