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Sun 11 Jul, 2004 03:05 am
So sayeth John Kerry:
Boston Globe
Arkansas News
Taipei Times
Has he right?
Now the classical philosophy questions: When starts the life really? At the procreation? Or however at the birth?
A interesting theory from Paracelus, the alchemist, physician ; I read this once in a book of his biography:
The Life begins before the procreation. Prior we are all fume. Later we live,
then If we die, we are fume again.
I guess you could say that every sperm and egg are also living things unto themselves. Every time a man ejaculates he loses a billion sperm. Every time a woman has her period she loses another egg. Shouldn't we lock men up for ejaculating and women for having their periods?
He is only voicing the position of his religion. Whether he believes it or not is anyone's guess. In my opinion that has nothing to do with the presidency that he aspires to. Religion ah religion, if we could only get over it and concern ourselves with what is good for the nation.
john kerry's statement is technically correct as far as I can tell...because conception is fertilization of the egg.
but we humans do not consider life to be very precious. we end lives every day, when we swat mosquitos, smoke cigarrettes, make paper, whatever.
so life is not very precious. conscious life is what is precious, we don't like to kill living creatures that have awareness and feelings. so we shouldn't measure when a child becomes alive, but when it becomes consciousnes.
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~folstein/psy326/devel.htm
Nickfun's post is hilarious and true. Yes, it's not a matter of life, obviously. The sperm are clearly living things. The question is when does the PERSON begin. And I think that means a viable person. In this I agree strongly with Stuh's emphasis on the conscious being. Who knows when that begins? I only know that a woman who does not wish to be an at-risk vessel for procreation (for whatever reason) IS, without doubt, a conscious being.
Stuh is also right on in acknowledging that we, as a species, do not have any real respect for life per se. We kill other species indiscrimately and members of our own discriminately, but often wantonly. I do not know a pro-lifer who hestitates (very long) to send our young people to war (to very likely die) or to condemn capital punishment even though we know it does not serve any positive function other than revenge and it has been shown to result in the death of many innocents.
Of course jl and Stuh are correct, but we are going to see a lot of posts telling us just the opposite. I tink I forego this one.
yeah but when JL and stuh agree, the argument stops (chuckle)
Yeah, it has to be the ABSOLUTE truth!
Assuming that we do possess something called consciousness which other animals don't, when do we acquire it? Maybe it's around the same time we develop memory, or maybe we have it before then, but we just can't remember having it. It would be useful to know wouldn't it - we might even find that really it's okay to kill your baby onc it's born if you're not happy with it, as long as you do it within a month or so.
I think animals also have consciousness though it may not be as developed as humans. Animals have the same emotions and feeling humans possess. The ability to think, reason and feel pain, joy and sorrow are not exclusively human. Maybe someday humans will be conscious enough to realize this.
I think most people believe that life does begin at procreation. The difference is what sort of life form is it? A virus is a living thing too, but we do not hesitate to kill one. A fetus is a type of living thing, but can you yet classify it as human life or is the potential to become human life? That is where the controversy arises.
A fetus is a human being, and that is what a human being looks like as a fetus, just like the eggs you buy at the store are what chickens look like as ova. The question is whether the government has the right to prevent us from killing them.
And I'm a pro-choicer -- I'd just prefer not to mince words about the whole thing.
NickFun wrote:I think animals also have consciousness though it may not be as developed as humans. Animals have the same emotions and feeling humans possess. The ability to think, reason and feel pain, joy and sorrow are not exclusively human. Maybe someday humans will be conscious enough to realize this.
Yeah I don't dispute that at all, I think that's very possible - it's hard to tell really. I guess it's more convenient to assume that worms and such are not conscious, since it's difficult to get through life without stepping on any. It could be true that worms are not conscious, and that it doesn't matter if we step on them, but then again it could not. Who knows
It's official.
I'm not voting.
The world is doomed.
That said, it really depends on whether or not we are talking about life, or human life. There is more to human life than a fertilized egg. I would not be opposed to having the law treat fetuses the same way it would treat a pet dog or cat, but no more.
BULLSH!T!!!
The majority of conceptions do not amount to anything. There is a self-aborting 'mechanism' that checks zygotes for fitness and chucks away the unfit. They dont even hit the radar. Is every woman that doesn't successfully conceive to be prosecuted??
Life does indeed begin at conception. But, in my opinion, does not become human life until the oh-so important upper brain begins development.
Everything else before that is just life support.
Look at them. Bloody Catholics, filling the bloody world up with bloody children they can't afford to bloody feed.
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