Michael Moore, Hero or Rogue

Just watch. Moore's flick is going to have its REAL impact when it comes out on DVD.

Right now I doubt many conservatives are going to go to the theater to watch it, but I'm sure plenty will check it out when it comes out on video. Better still, when all their less conservative relatives buy it and insist on showing it to them (as I plan on doing with my very conservative father).

Well, yes, when I say that Americans are stupid, it doesn't mean I am holding anyone else in higher regard.

Today's Americans have the perversity to believe, or at least rationalize in the midst of their dumbness, that they are good, possibly even righteous... and that is, to my mind, a huge failing.

Very nice to be seeing you again, piffka. How are things in exotic downtown Bombay?

It is the premise or the assumption of exceptionalism which I think we both point towards.

Hullo, Blatham, it is nice to see you, too. Things are very fine in Bombay if one enjoys mild weather and plenty of it. I hope life on the B.C. Riviera is likewise pleasant, with a high level of good will and summer frolicking.

I agree with you. The Assumption of Exceptionalism is a good turn of phrase and a staggering bit of self-deception.

Piffka--

I must take issue with your opinion of your inherent goodness and righteousness, your exaggerated Assumption of Exceptionalism. It is a staggering bit of self-deception.

Oh my, an insult. What a surprise.

It seems as though the strategy Bush is using is to tell the public what he thinks they want to hear, and for all we know, enough may want to hear it for him to be re-elected.

Though, given the approval ratings in today's paper, that strategy may need a little tweaking...

Weather nice here today, too, between Bombay and the BC Riviera. Now I just hope my house doesn't burn to a crisp when the celebrants light their artillery this coming weekend...

Unintended. It just boggles me how an American can make such a general statement about the group, of which she is a member...

Give the rest of us (and yourself) a BREAK, will ya?

The notion of American Exceptionalism is at the root of a lot of mischief. The Puritans, who got that particular ball rolling, were led by narrow-minded men who had no tolerance for any kind of dissent or diversity. Anyone who didn't tow the line was thrown out of the colony.

For Reagan to evoke their City on the Hill BS is a good example of how little we know about the Puritans and how their legacy has been misconstrued.

But, Camelot was spot on...?

Sorry, Sofia, I don't follow.

I referred to your sentiment--

For Reagan to evoke their City on the Hill BS is a good example of how little we know about the Puritans and how their legacy has been misconstrued
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Many Presidents allude to some ethereal image of their country.

The Kennedy era was called, wistfully and widely, "Camelot".

Reagan saw it as a shining city of a hill. I think your linkage with Reagan's ideal metaphor was no more about American "Exceptionalism" than Kennedy's--and neither were based on exceptionalism, but our little love of this place, which used to cross party lines.

Hmm - Kennedy NEVER talked about Camelot! He would have squirmed in his seat, and not from the back pain!

'Twas a post-hoc thingy started by Jackie, in full hagiographic grief mode.

No one said HE talked about it. It was widely referred to as Camelot.

Bush the Elder started to ramble on about the Waltons as role models.

That man cracked me up. When I think of him, I always visualize Dana Carvey, pointing around with wild hand gestures.

Just didn't have that 'vision thing'.

sofia

Your last set of comments don't make much sense. Obviously, it is a rather different thing when a President speaks a metaphor and when a metaphor arises around a President but out of another source.

As to 'american exceptionalism', you ought to type that in on google and find out the history of the notion and what it refers to.

Obviously, it is a rather different thing when a President speaks a metaphor and when a metaphor arises around a President but out of another source.
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I don't think the two are so different.

Both metaphors were widely known, written about...in our press and internationally. Camelot, though it appeared on the scene after Kennedy's death, was far more publicised as a golden, mythologically fabulous period in American politics. It was embraced.

Kennedy talked about America's responsibility to the rest of the world in very similar terms to Reagan's, and oddly, Reagan finished the job Kennedy began so disastrously with Kruschev. (sp)Their rhetoric was incredibly similar, with respect to foreign policy.

I will look in to see if this responsibility is what you refer to as 'exceptionalism'.

Blatham--

Thank you. Didn't realize the connected terms American Exceptionalism resulted in a specific cottage industry.

It was an interesting theory. I've often thought the era we were born, and the history we missed, made us different. I agreed with much I read.

sofia

It's a deep subject with a lot of history and very good thought directed towards it.

But it is a double-edged sword. Pride is a good thing, but it has to be tempered with a clear sight towards that about us which is not as worthy as the good stuff. That's true for us as individuals, or true for us as families, or for whatever group we hold membership within.

The Greeks didn't see themselves as Greeks, but as citizens of their particular cities. In Athenian literature and culture, there is a strong awareness of the negative side of pridefullness which is contained in their term "hubris", meaning pride which is overbearing, or arrogant, or presumptuous. They understood this is a dangerous failing in the individual, and particularly in a leader or in a city's notions of itself.

In the same manner that you perhaps see such a thing in French regard towards their own culture, we are arguing here that such a creature exists within the american self-image too.

We are also arguing that it is destructive or self-damaging. This is not an blanket indictment of America or Americans. It is a plea to you to clean up the messy parts so that the best of America (which is a lot) can flourish.