Michael Moore, Hero or Rogue

We're really in the minority on A2K of some pretty smart people (yes, including those ideologically left and right). The majority of people I know as friends, business colleagues and relatives are embarrasingly dumb about American politics and social issues. Are Europeans any better? I don't know -- that is one of Moore's generalizations that is difficult to interpret. He's got more 'splainin to do. I still do not believe he is anything but supportive of the American ideal and it may not be what each one of us view as the ideal.

Just watch Jay Leno's street interviews and panels on The Tonight Show. Unfortunately, that represents more of the American public than we'd like to admit. It is manifested in the low voter turnout each election which has shrank rarther than increased.

dupicate

BTW, if the majority of the American public were intelligent, caring people we'd have ten times the participation on these boards. Have you read some of the idiotic chat on the internet? Here's your tin foil hat if you are going exploring (courtesy of Jespah).

au

Were the germans 'stupid' to follow Hitler? Certainly many germans thought other germans were stupid to so follow. Please don't get lost in the inappropriateness of comparing Bush and Adolph, as that isn't my point.

The point is that at times it makes very good sense indeed to speak in the manner that Moore does above about one's own country and the tendencies of its citizens to follow poor leaders with poor or destructive policies. And it makes very good sense to point to those places and behaviors where national mythologies are shown to obscure actual states of affairs.

You may clambor on a high pony about what follows, but you ought to ask yourself why you are up there if that happens. For her tenth grade, my daughter moved from Vancouver to Los Angeles to continue school there. Within the first week, she had written me a letter utterly dismayed by how little knowledge about the rest of the world her new schoolmates evidenced. That's not an uncommon complaint, and it has merit. America is a consequence of its geography and its history, and both of those factors have determined a degree of insularity and isolation which hasn't been the case for European states (you can almost bicycle across some nations in a day there, and kids are constantly travelling all about and know multiple languages) or even Canada, with our mix of both French and English traditions, and our continued ties to England (we didn't revolt, so have little of the Independence/unique and better entity mythologies or mindset evident in the US.

As I've said elsewhere, there is really no notion here of 'anti-Canadianism'. That difference is absolutely pertinent and relevant here.

i'm not willing to swallow that Europeans don't have their fair share of politically stupid people, that's for sure. Moore can get very angry at times and go over the edge. When he settles down and methodically dissects something he's at his best. All in all he's pro a good America and anti a bad America and that has a lot to do with the politicians in power who got their through at least understanding the basics of Machiavelli.

That many Americans are politically illiterate I agree and have voiced the same from time to time. However, IMO that is not justification for Moore to run around Europe feeding the sharks shouting. Americans are stupid, Americans are stupid. Yes, we are stupid for helping the Europeans when they were in need. We should have treated the Europeans as they are prone to treat those in need after WW2 .
I have heard it said that the difference between an American and a European is that when an American sees someone on the floor the tendency is to pick them up and help them. While a European in the same situation will kick them in the head to make sure they stay down. Maybe this is stupidity?

Start your engines!

The Europeans are primed to believe a lot of things with Bush and Co. in power. I do think Moore should stop and consider what he's saying when adding fuel to a fire.

We really didn't have much choice in helping the Europeans in WW1 and 2 -- Woodrow Wilson orchestrated our participation along with a certain future Prime Minister who didn't properly warn the U.S. about the danger to the Lusitania. We were dragged kicking and screaming into WW2 with the attack on Pearl Harbor. There were still many Americans that would have thrown the Europeans into the mouth of the wolf. THere still are now -- Pat Buchanan was certainly vocal on that and shot himself in the foot politically.

That is the fault of Moore to speak flippantly from time to time but his faux pas are miniscule when considering what Bush has uttered.

What the hell are you talking about? What 'sharks' for goodness sakes?

And cease with the 'look at all the good we've done' because it just looks like another denial of the other side (which is what it is). And the anecdote of europeans versus americans in charity is not merely foolish, it isn't supported by fact. Many countries give far more per capita to the rest of the world than does america.

Why not begin with the sensible thesis that america is just as fukked up as anyone else? And given such a sensible thesis, then america's power and influence will take on a new look, one which those outside of the US keep pointing to.

What the hell is with this defensiveness, au?

There would likely be no America without the French -- we needed them to win the Revolutionary War and would likely have Queen Elizabeth as our governess without them (or another version of Tony Blair). Of course, there's a historical precedent for this -- the French have historically cooperated with the U.S. a great deal more than with the British. And, hmm, where did that statue in NY harbor come from?

I thought it was a discard from an old pride float..."Queens In Queens".

I realize of course that Europe is becoming more united and with the advent of the Eurodollar there's a lot more economic cooperation going on. Then, there's Asia...

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27533

No defensiveness. In a pinch the Europeans can never be depended on. As far as giving you must have heard of the Marshall plan. Who helped put western Europe back on it's feet? The stupid people of the US. And who was it that started WW2 that killed millions of people?The very smart and enlightened peoples of Europe. And why is the Middle East and Africa in the plight it is in today?Could it be the colonial policies of the benevolent European nations? Who saved the countries of Western Europe from being gobbled up by the Russian Bear? Could it have been the stupid nation called the US? I could go on and on but why bother?
PS I am not defending Bush who I believe has been a disaster for the US.

The British figure in as well as NATO but the reason most of Europe doesn't appear to show gratitude is because of our leaders and especially Bush. Unfortunately we likely would not have been able to end the war in Europe and crush the Nazis without Russia and the British. I still don't read Moore as anti-American but anti-conservative and anti-Bush.

au

Your entire post above is defensive.

I know you are not including Bush in what you defend, but getting rid of Bush won't solve all your problems, just some pressing, immediate, and essential ones.

Moore isn't anti-American, nor am I. We just do not buy the notion that America is exceptional in the manner many think it to be so. In other words, we think it as screwed up or as selfish or as stupid as anyone else, less so in some ways and more so in others. Why wouldn't it be that way?

Au

I've misjudged you. Forgive me.

When I first travelled to Europe in 1972, I was a long haired hippy teenager who had marched in the anti-war demonstrations in Washington D.C. I detested Richard Nixon and all things to the Right of Mao Tse Tung.

My first stop was Gay Paree.

It may be easy to believe now, but, trust me, you would not have believed it at the time, but I actually ended up getting in a fist fight with a bunch of French college students who insisted that all Americans, at heart, are "Baby-Killers." True to my pacifist tendencies, I didn't strike the first blow. That was a french fist, after I suggested to them that we wouldn't be having the debate if the baby-killing Americans hadn't pulled their asses out of two world wars. They may be legendary cowards, but not to the extent that a pugnacious 17 year old could stand them down -- they kicked the hell out of me.

I returned to Europe during the Reagan era as an older, but hardly less liberal man. In England, I steered clear of brawls, but I, amazingly, found myself repeatedly defending Reagan.

I learned that one is never more a patriot than when one is in a foreign country, and so the thought of someone pandering to the numerous anti-American Europeans by joining in the slandering of his country and FAR WORSE, his fellow Americans, turns my stomach.

One can argue all day that Moore is just expressing his personal opinion, but in my considered opinion, that is a crock. He is pandering to an audience whose regard he desperately craves. Give little Afghani children chocolate bars; give the European Left anti-American fodder.

No matter how stupid you may think your family to be, they are your family and you don't trash them in public. You don't trash your country and your fellow citizens on foreign soil---and you certainly don't do it to garner the condescending regard of a bunch of pseudo-intellectual snots.

Variety reports that Eisner is going to draw fire from Disney stockholders on his decision to not distribute the film after the extraordinary BO numbers sink in. Eisner still insists it was not a political decision. This is the studio who fired Bill Maher and actually did him a favor as his HBO show is superior to "Politically Incorrect."

I suppose it's fashionable in America to trash the Europeans especially amongst the xenophobes. If one doesn't want to believe that most of the people that don't vote are politically dumb or that even many of the people who do vote are politically dumb, that's their mind set and I don't believe anyone will change it, least of all Michael Moore.

Also from Variety:

Back on March 27, The Walt Disney Company announced that it was going to lay off around 4,000 of its 120,000 employees, or roughly 3% of the company's workforce. This was, according to the e-mail Michael Eisner sent to all Disney employees, "to help us achieve our goals for reasonable long-term growth and profitability and to ensure that our businesses retain their industry leadership and creative strength." About 1,400 of those being let go came from Walt Disney World in Florida and another 250 from the Disneyland Resort in California.

Disney's $100M+ flop "Around the World in 80 Days" fell 44% in its second weekend to $4.3M for a 12-day gross of just $18.3M. Jackie Chan's idea of a global disaster film looks to finish with a miserable $25-30M.

One chooses to pander to nationalism because... I don't know, it makes one feel better about himself? Of course, all American women are strong, all the men are good-looking and all the children are above-average.

"It's not enough that I should succeed - others should fail." - David Merricky

I've never held cheerleaders in awe. Building up excitement in the crowd, beating the drum so that the team will fight? If you can't tell the truth, if you have to hide the facts, then who are you fooling? I have my eyes open when I look at my country.

Lightwizard -- It will be interesting to see what the Disney shareholders think about political decisions that affect the bottomline of Disney stock. It seems that, in the end, we will all worry most about our own wallets.

I wouldn't worry about Disney, though. I assume that since the Saudis own 7% of this country, they could as easily bolster up Disney as pay off some oil men.

Clearly (according to my theory of average and ubiquitous fukkedupedness) there will be some predicable correlation between how many French folks are complete idiots and how many Canadians are complete idiots. The US fits in this formula too.

If the French or the Canadians were the most powerful, dominant, and intrusive force in the world, other people would be yelling at them and picking out all the spots where Canadianism appears faulty or short-sighted or blindly prideful or selfish or dumb.

The US is the one in that exalted place, so it gets the negatives along with the benefits.

I can see Michael Moore playing the Devil's Advocate to wake people up -- the US populace doesn't have the corner on complacency but they do a good job of faking it.