Another day when there is no God

@timur,

I would so appreciate taking this elsewhere.

@edgarblythe,

Edgar, I think that to be a fair request from you.

TIMUR...I invite you to take our pissing contest over to a thread of mine. We can trash that one for as long as you like.

http://able2know.org/topic/276266-1

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@edgarblythe,

I gladly oblige, Edgar..

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

You will have to spell it out a little more so I can be certain of your point.

Did you see the point about logic not adding any new information, Ed? At the end there, I kinda switched topics, and you responded to that, but...

The point is that logic can and will never serve to convince someone who doesn't also accept the premises. Premises, by nature, do not come from logic, and can't be proved--at least not fundamental premises.

It is quite "logical" to conclude that god exists, if that's the premise you start with, but, like I said, that's just a matter of repeating yourself. Likewise, it's just as "logical" to conclude that there are no gods if you start with that premise.

But logic does not generate premises. Premises generate implications, which can be independently assessed for empirical consistency with other known facts, but they will necessarily be consistent with the premises, so that won't be a question. If they weren't, they wouldn't be implications.

People often like to think that logic "proves" their position. It doesn't (and can't). It can only show that their conclusions are entailed by their assumptions (or not).

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I saw your point but you have not shaken what I said earlier.

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@edgarblythe,

I

Quote:

saw your point but you have not shaken what I said earlier

I wasn't trying to. Believe what you want, I don't really care. I mean, if you wanted to discuss the merits of your position, I wouldn't mind, but if you don't, that's fine too.

The only reason I said what I did was because you said you would change your views if someone gave you a "logical" reason to do so. It's not about logic, in cases like these.

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@layman,

People who argue against atheism, in my experience, simply do not want atheism to exist, no matter what. On Able2Know, it happens repeatedly. In some threads they aren't even asked, but they have a compulsion to bring down the atheist and they barge in anyway. I believe at core it is based in fear, a need to strike back at something that threatens their core being, despite the fact that most atheists lack the desire to hurt a believer at all.

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@edgarblythe,

I just can't engage with that sort of convo. I won't be swayed with theists gassing on and on. Even though I'm an agnostic, I see no mileage in engaging with those that have other theistic leanings. It's just not a debatable issue for me. not because I don't like debate...it's just not going to get anywhere. They want to convert a non-believer...and prove they just haven't thought it out well enough..etc. I can't be bothered.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

People who argue against atheism, in my experience, simply do not want atheism to exist, no matter what.

Well, maybe, in some cases anyway. But you can't act like it's all one-sided. Many vociferous atheists expressly claim that they don't want religious belief to exist as well. You could, I suppose, make this same argument about them:

"I believe at core it is based in fear, a need to strike back at something that threatens their core being."

That wouldn't be my first guess, but it's possible.

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@Ragman,

Quote:

I just can't engage with that sort of convo.

I'm with you, Rags. I have no desire to try to "convert" anyone with a theistic stance to take another, different one (I include atheists as among those who take a "theistic stance").

It can be an interesting topic to discuss, dispassionately, but most people who want to discuss it are not that.

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@layman,

... but it's so counter-productive and senseless - more so than most debate threads as there's no chance of anyone getting anywhere ..either convincing someone or justifying or rationalizing their beliefs.. Not to mention..it's such a highly personal area. I'd rather talk about my sex life...and there's absolutely no chance of that happening.

Of course, if I had a sex life...

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@Ragman,

Quote:

Of course, if I had a sex life...

Heh. Yeah, I've forgotten just how the old saw goes, but part of it is about religion: Never argue about religion or (something else). But whatever it is, I buy it. There's nothing to be gained, and a lot of good will to potentially be lost, without even mentioning the utter futility of it all.

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I'm a sloppy atheist, being without belief. Most here know that.

I don't care what you think. It is your business.
Trust me on that.

Much less do I want to hear what you think over a dozen years, repeated over and over.

I probably look at these threads from interest in weirdness.
That it tacky. I will make an effort to stop.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

In some threads they aren't even asked, but they have a compulsion to bring down the atheist and they barge in anyway.

Maybe I'm just seeing one side of it, but, from what I've seen, it is much more likely to be the atheist who is provocative, scornful, derisive, and downright hostile when these "battles" break out. I always get the sense that they feel very insecure in some way when that happens. They are trying to prove their "superiority" in some general sense, venting some pent-up emotions they have, or something. They can be particularly strident in insisting that they are completely right and the poor religious sap is completely wrong. The fervent projection of a cocky self-certainty suggest some strong emotional involvement to me, at least. It actually become a "talking point" of the so-called "new atheist" to be certain to mock and ridicule theists at every conceivable opportunity.

Even if he is just proselytizing and nothing else, I seldom see the person of religious conviction being that aggressive, inciteful and disdainful.

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I see the deist as insecure and frightened and this makes them aggressively want to stop atheists from doing their atheist stuff - whatever they think that is. At any rate, I don't need to carry on these arguments. But anybody here is welcome to do your thing. I will shortly be going to bed. Got to say my atheist prayer to nothing first:

Now I am going to go to sleep
Hope I needn't count any sheep
If I should die before I wake
I should have ate instead of saved that cake

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@edgarblythe,

You can also say this one, Edgar:

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2008/03/atheistprayer.jpg

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@layman,

Quote:

Maybe I'm just seeing one side of it, but, from what I've seen, it is much more likely to be the atheist who is provocative, scornful, derisive, and downright hostile when these "battles" break out.

I don't think you are seeing just one side of it here, Layman.

I am not sure it is MORE likely for the atheists to act has you suggest...but it certainly is AS LIKELY, and that seem to be something that just does not register with atheists.

Edgar seems to think that people are out to get atheists. I have no problem with atheists or theists. They can "believe" what they want about the true nature of the REALITY of existence. If they want to guess there is a GOD...fine. If they want to guess there are not gods...also fine.

But when their guesses or "beliefs" are presented as assertions...I question them...and present arguments for why I think those assertions are nothing more than guesses.

I honestly do not understand the hostility from theists and atheists when those questions arise. I see them as reasonable and appropriate.

In any case, I will continue to question them...and I am delighted others, like you, do also.

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I don't know what planet you guys are from. All you gotta do is read the polls, which state that a huge majority of Americans consider atheists less trustworthy than ax murderers. Laws against atheists being elected to public office. Religious people taking as much science out of classes to replace it with as much Bible as possible. Atheists being executed in other countries for the crime of atheism. Forcing prayers and religious acts on public gatherings. And that's just the parts I can think of in my barely waking state before I have had my coffee.

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@edgarblythe,

Well, I am from planet Earth, Edgar...and here in America on planet Earth...atheists do just fine. Right now you folk are probably doing better than recent immigrants, for instance.

I grant there are some who hate atheists for being atheist. However, there also are people who hate Muslims for being Muslim; Catholics for being Catholic; and Jews for being Jews. Some people hate others for being NY Football Giants fans.

Hate happens. Perhaps atheists are less able to deal with the stuff that comes their way than others.

In any case, I would appreciate a link to that poll which states that "a huge majority of Americans consider atheists less trustworthy than ax murderers"...although I will not be holding my breath waiting for you to produce it.

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@edgarblythe,

This is the first blog entry, entitled "Understanding Why New Atheists Use Ridicule," that I came across with a google search. It starts out by noting that:

Quote:

...ridicule and mockery of the religious are key components of the New Atheist Movement. According to John Loftus, “It’s not just the so-called “new atheists” like Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher, and PZ Myers who advocate ridicule. I do too (see below).

It not just that they "do" this. It's that they vigorously advocate that ALL atheists do it. It is premeditated aggressive attack that they want to see.

The blog goes on to cite several theorists who offer various hypotheses as to what the motives of the "new atheists" are, including their self-proclaimed motives, Some examples:

Quote:

(1) As they have told us, the mockery and ridicule is part of a socio-political plan, meaning that it is propaganda...
(2) Yet there is another aspect to the ridicule/mockery – it represents aggression...
(3) One theory that attempts to explain the use of disparagement humor is Superiority theory...Seen in this light, New Atheist mocking also functions to prop up the New Atheist ego
(4)...the New Atheist propaganda is trying to tap into what is known as Social Identity theory: Social identity theory assumes that people want to maintain a positive identity, including a positive social identity.

The author, who appears to be a theist, then offers this "summary:"

Quote:

Summary: New Atheists routinely engage in disparagement humor as part of their propagandistic war on religion. When their behavior is considered in the light of psychology, we learn some interesting facts about the New Atheists: a) they feel the need to be superior; b) their reliance on straw man arguments makes perfect sense; c) they come to the table from a position of militant, closed-mindedness, interested not in understanding, but only triumph. This is the group that tries to sell itself as the champions of reason and science.

https://shadowtolight.wordpress.com/2015/02/28/understanding-why-new-atheists-use-ridicule/

Like any of those theories, Ed?

1 Reply

Another day when there is no God

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