What to Make of polygamy?

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

This seems much more probable then the theory that 17 women would choose the same male by choice and that 16 males would get nothing.

ever been in a club where one guy has all the women crowding around him? I've definitely seen it happen

of course at my age, I'm mostly seeing photos of those crowds ... but it's been common as long as I've been aware of the male/female dynamic

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

ever been in a club where one guy has all the women crowding around him? I've definitely seen it happen

I have said before that with young men today increasingly large numbers of men get nothing while a small number of males get all the sex they could possibly want, so the theory is not foreign to me. my problem is the 1/17 ratio, this is far too extreme to be caused by women choosing in my opinion.

I am as always open to being convinced that I am wrong.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

I am as always open to being convinced that I am wrong.

That's smooth....

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This test with DNA could someone please tell me where it was done and how many people were tested?
Honestly the whole test seems rather shaky to me.

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@saab,

maybe even skincolor had to do with whom males were having children.
Or were the first Europeans racists?
Don´t take my questions too seriously.

The first Europeans looked dramatically different to many of the fair skinned populations that live there today.

In fact, new research suggests Caucasians were a relatively recent addition to the area, arriving on the continent just 8,000 years ago.

They joined a much darker-skinned population who were the original migrants to Europe from Africa, arriving around 40,000 years ago.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3027873/How-white-skin-evolved-Europeans-Pale-complexions-developed-region-8-000-years-ago-study-claims.html#ixzz3WbciRxgc

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"In more recent history, as a global average, about four or five women reproduced for every one man."

Agriculture would lead to more communal existence and the opportunity to more closely focus territorial power.

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@knaivete,

What kind of statistic is that?
Global average comparing a country were polygami is/was allowed with people living isolated on farms far away from others. Also it is rather new and still does not exists everywhere that fathers are registrated when the child is born outside a marriage.
How can one know who fathered a child when it is not registrated any place?
Is in this statistic is also taken in consideration when women died?

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@saab,

Quote:

What kind of statistic is that?

It's a statistic from the research paper based upon the analysis of the Y-chromosome DNA and the mitochondrial DNA of extant populations.

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@saab,

Of course the first Europeans were racists. You are making a mistake, Saab. You can't put 21st century values onto earlier Europeans. The values that you now have didn't exist back then, we invented them (in the past century).

Humans have always been tribal. We are nice to people we consider to be part of our group. We are cruel to people who aren't like us. It is not human nature to respect people who don't look like us. This has always been the case.

If you take a person from an earlier culture, of course you would judge them to be racist.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

I have said before that with young men today increasingly large numbers of men get nothing while a small number of males get all the sex they could possibly want, so the theory is not foreign to me. my problem is the 1/17 ratio, this is far too extreme to be caused by women choosing in my opinion.

Don't make this an either/or case. The ratio is indeed very high which pleads for the combination of several factors.

It could also be an artifact, and Beth rightly pointed out that this is just one study, lacking corroboration for the time being.

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@saab,

Both Hawkeye and I posted links on the first page that will lead you to the original study.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

Of course the first Europeans were racists. You are making a mistake, Saab. You can't put 21st century values onto earlier Europeans.

WTF ?? Are you seriously saying only modern people have values like racist equality ? How about Celts meeting Chinese and living together peacefully ? How about the Romans never went down the racist path and never mentioned if someone was black or not ? What about evidence that Neanderthals and Sapiens interbred ?

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@Ionus,

Really? You are going to go with the Romans?

The Romans saw themselves as a superior race. They attacked and subjugated people they called "barbarians". They had slaves from conquered people. They raped. They pillaged. They entertained themselves with gladiatorial combat between non-Romans.

This is about the worst example you could have possibly chosen.

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@maxdancona,

Chinese history is filled with conquest and subjugation based on race as well.

The fact that sometimes one group found it convenient to ally themselves with another group doesn't prove much. Wars along racial/ethnic lines are pretty much consistent throughout history.

Our obsession with racial equality is new. For all of the wars, and subjugation and ethnic conflict, and genocides throughout history... you don't see any discussion about equality until very recently (i.e. the past 300 years).

Romans had the idea of "natio". How badly you could treat a slave had to do with where that slave was born. This was just accepted in Roman society.

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@ehBeth,

I could not open yours and Hawkeye´s does not really tell all the details.
Why would women 8000 years ago not at least now and then choose their own partner but share the same man with 16 other women?
I found an article in Swedish and there is no mentioning of this one men and 17 women but that we Europeans have genes from three grooups of people instead of two which was the idea up till recentlz

DNA tests have been done from a 7000 year old farmer from sourthern Germany, a 8000 year old hunter from Luxenburg and seven 8000 year old Swedes. The tests have been compared with 2.400 modern people from all over the world

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

I picture each mating male killing on average 16 males to get the right to enjoy sex, a lot.

Quote:

"It wasn't like there was a mass death of males. They were there, so what were they doing?" asks Melissa Wilson Sayres, a computational biologist at Arizona State University, and a member of a group of scientists who uncovered this moment in prehistory by analyzing modern genes.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

"It wasn't like there was a mass death of males

How was this "fact" ascertained? It sounds like a guess based wholly on wishful thinking, which any good scientist would clearly identify as such.

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@hawkeye10,

That's a quote from the scientist that did the study you started the thread with. Perhaps you could email her your question.

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@saab,

If you are interested, you can look up the original study. It's not hard to find.

However, here are two more links (there are more out there) to reviews of the research.

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/social_fitness_did_a_genetic_bottleneck_occur_because_of_wealth_and_power-154047

http://content.science20.com/files/images/social_fitness_genetic_bottleneck.jpg

http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/male-genes-preserve-survival-of-the-wealthiest-legacy/81251045/

1 Reply

@saab,

Quote:

Why would women 8000 years ago not at least now and then choose their own partner but share the same man with 16 other women?

In the majority of human cultures throughout history, women do not get to choose their partners.

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What to Make of polygamy?

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