What to Make of polygamy?

@hawkeye10,

Among gorillas, only the dominant male of the group is siring the group's females. All the other males remain virgin forever, unless they can get away with cheating, or beat the old dominant male, or start their own group.

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@saab,

There is a selective reading of history happening here on a number of levels. Some modern voices want to find examples that support their markedly modern narrative. A quick google search finds example of ancient Germanic concubines (which I don't think match the progressive narrative)... you can have one wife, and still have concubines or mistresses (I don't know if this is considered monogamy).

But let's look at this in terms of what both you and I know from our experience as men. I offer the following without any moral judgement... but just a intellectual exploration of facts. Can we agree on the following?

1) Most men want to have sex with multiple partners over their lifetime (although they may want to be faithful to a single partner for a period of time). This is a biological drive, across cultures. There is an obvious evolutionary reason for this drive.

2) Many cultures have rules to restrict sexuality, effectively restricting the natural sex drive. These rules change from culture to culture and are often beneficial.

Can we agree on these two premises for the sake of an interesting discussion?

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@maxdancona,

I would add: 3) Most women want to have sex with multiple partners over their lifetime

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@maxdancona,

I have no experiences what so ever as a man, so I cannot agree with you as a man
I had to look up statistics in Sweden
10% of the men have had multiple partners from 26 - several hundreds
It looks to me as if the average Swedish man prefer one or few partners which seems to fit my friends and people I know
The average man has 7 partners in a lifetime
38% have been unfaithful to their partner and the majority prefer being faithful and trustworthy - again fits people I know.

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@saab,

I am sorry.... I thought you were male. My basic premises still apply (assuming you know some men).

I don't know what the 10% figure is actually measuring... does that mean at the same time. (You can't have a higher percentage of men cheating then you do that have more than one partner). Or is that 10% of men with a ridiculous number of partners...

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

1) Most men want to have sex with multiple partners over their lifetime (although they may want to be faithful to a single partner for a period of time). This is a biological drive, across cultures. There is an obvious evolutionary reason for this drive.

2) Many cultures have rules to restrict sexuality, effectively restricting the natural sex drive. These rules change from culture to culture and are often beneficial.

Can we agree on these two premises for the sake of an interesting discussion?

Fine, but can we also agree that if science is right during this time 8000 years either lots of men were not ******* or else lots of males turned up dead before they could?

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@maxdancona,

It means 10% of men have over a lifetime slept with that many women.
38% have been cheating but that does not mean they have had multi partners.
The average amount is 7,4 women which means one man slept with 14 and one with 1

It is ok you thought I am a male. It happens when I only have written contact with somebody - like here or bank or taxes or whatever.
With a letter I think I know why. Women usually sign with full first name men just with first letter. So do I. Then of course last name.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Fine, but can we also agree that if science is right during this time 8000 years either lots of men were not ******* or else lots of males turned up dead before they could?

wouldn't it be better to wait til more research is completed?

(though if you look at the charts from the study you reference in the OP, option 1 seems to be the answer based on the currently available info)

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

wouldn't it be better to wait til more research is completed?

Only if the geneticists might be wrong about what they think they found. This science is getting very good, so I doubt it.

That some men dominated the depositing of sperm is not a surprise to me because of how men act today, which speaks to our genetic coding which takes a long time to change, but the degree (only 1 of 17 males gets the women) does. I doubt that this happens without a lot of murder. Logically the scientists cant say what happened to the other 16 because they have already said that they did not pass along their genetics, so the geneticists have no way to know what happened to them.

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@saab,

Quote:

It means 10% of men have over a lifetime slept with that many women.
38% have been cheating but that does not mean they have had multi partners.

Is there a language barrier here? Multi-partners to me simply means more than one.

I can't imagine how anyone could cheat without having more than one partner. To cheat you at least need two partners (i.e. the one you are cheating with and the one you are cheating on). Does Multi-partner mean something different to you than it does to me? Or does "cheat"?

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I suppose that we could add the theory that lots of men had their balls cut off, but it does not seem likely that the ability to do this without killing most of them existed.

Another thing: all hands were required for survival back then, so how would the doms have the luxury of killing or driving off most of the males? If the males are still around how does 1 keep 16 from the females?

Quite an interesting puzzle we have here.

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@hawkeye10,

It's not only males. Females today also behave in ways that are compatible with your stat. Girls all want the same boy. A man's value as a mate depends on how much he is desired by other women, and we all know that rock stars have more opportunities than most...

If society would condone totally free sex, you can bet that not more than 1 in 10 men would benefit. Which is perhaps why society does not condone free sex: to spread the goods.

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@hawkeye10,

Did you read anything past the link in your OP? there is more info about the study out there.

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@maxdancona,

Multi comes from Latin and simply means several/many.
Several and many is much more than two.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

If the males are still around how does 1 keep 16 from the females?

Quite an interesting puzzle we have here.

how is it done in other animal groups? it's not such unusual behaviour. there are several primates where the alpha male is dominant in breeding. same thing with horses, not all males have equal access to fertile females

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-headed_capuchin#Social_structure

http://www.rug.nl/research/behavioural-ecology-and-self-organization/_pdf/kr_ea_bp14.pdf

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I can't imagine how anyone could cheat without having more than one partner.

if you're not in an exclusive partnership you can have multiple partners without cheating

and the multi-partner thing (I think) is about cheating with one other person or multiple other people

seeing the original study would definitely help sort the confusion out

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

not all males have equal access to fertile females

Indeed. I gave the example of gorillas already.

The really interesting question in Hawk's post is not "why so few males mated at time X" but the evolution of the data. What happened during early neolithic that led to less males mating more females, as compared to the paleolithic?

Royalty?

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@Olivier5,

If you look at the charts from the study, it's a short-term blip - which was apparently why one of the researchers theorized a virus as the cause.

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@ehBeth,

Still, it lasted a few thousand years according yo these graphs, so a virus is highly unlikely. The article "hypothesize that this bottleneck is caused by cultural changes affecting variance of reproductive success among males."

I think wealth concentration makes a good hypothesis. Hunter-gatherers are known to be more equalitarian than more 'developed' societies. The neolitic is associated with the birth of cities, and thus the need for a strongly hierarchical society.

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@Olivier5,

hawkeye10 wrote:

If the males are still around how does 1 keep 16 from the females?

that's assuming the females would be attracted to the other males

my thinking is more like Olivier's in this realm

Olivier5 wrote:

Females today also behave in ways that are compatible with your stat.

Which is perhaps why society does not condone free sex: to spread the goods.

isn't there some research around this? trying to recall what the specific area of study was called <furrows brow - it's obvious but escapes me today>

When it comes to primates/canines etc there are often alpha/beta males and females - not everyone in the group is given the opportunity to mate.

1 Reply

What to Make of polygamy?

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