18
   

What to Make of polygamy?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 01:40 pm
Found an interesting article suggesting another possible cause for the 1/17 ratio: the spread of agro-pastoralists at the expense of hunter-gatherers. Apparently, in Europe at least, the females of the latter mated a lot with the males of the former...

Quote:
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages
Patricia Balaresque et al.

The relative contributions to modern European populations of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers from the Near East have been intensely debated. Haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269) is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic. Taken with evidence on the origins of other haplogroups, this indicates that most European Y chromosomes originate in the Neolithic expansion.

[...] Much debate has focused on the origins of agriculture in Europe some 10,000 years ago, and in particular whether its westerly spread from the Near East was driven by farmers themselves migrating, or by the transmission of ideas and technologies to indigenous hunter-gatherers. This study examines the diversity of the paternally inherited Y chromosome, focusing on the commonest lineage in Europe. The distribution of this lineage, the diversity within it, and estimates of its age all suggest that it spread with farming from the Near East. Taken with evidence on the origins of other lineages, this indicates that most European Y chromosomes descend from Near Eastern farmers. In contrast, most maternal lineages descend from hunter-gatherers, suggesting a reproductive advantage for farming males over indigenous hunter-gatherer males during the cultural transition from hunting-gathering to farming.

Citation: Balaresque P, Bowden GR, Adams SM, Leung H-Y, King TE, et al. (2010) A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for European Paternal Lineages. PLoS Biol 8(1): e1000285. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285


http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 02:55 pm
@Olivier5,
Thing is I remember a few years back reading about a study that thought that they had proved that the earliest farmers had really bad diets and were in poor health. Maybe that fits, that the ag women could not reproduce because of diet, but then why would everyone be moving to Ag? Were the men and men doing Ag the alphas or the betas?

I wish that I remembered more.....maybe this study was about an attempt at farming that greatly predated the time that we are talking about.
carloslebaron
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 03:50 pm
Since the beginning of civilization that started in the Eastern side of the globe -not Africa but Asia- polygamy was common.

The genetic findings are proving it, and we can rest with this understanding without mixing it with today's world culture.

All religions -the primeval ones- accepted polygamy as a natural choice in their societies. Even the bible, we can read in the New Testament, that an apostle asked as a requirement for a new priest (pastor/preacher, etc.) and a new deacon, to be a husband of one wife.

This is not a requirement for the whole religious assembly, but only for the leaders.

This is to say, the early Christians who didn't want to be a priest or a deacon, they can have more than one wife.

For several reasons, many men decided to have one wife only, but they had concubines, slaves or, they were so poor that one wife was the most they can afford.

The need of children for hard work, the need of many children because many people died young due to illness caused by infections and diseases, this was the main reason why one man had children with many women.

Nothing extraordinary about this simple way to find a solution to evade extinction.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 04:00 pm
@carloslebaron,
Quote:
Nothing extraordinary about this simple way to find a solution to evade extinction.


so what is your theory? That humans were under great pressure from something at the time? Was it maybe a population problem, too many people to feed?
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 04:12 pm
@carloslebaron,
Christianity became monogamous because the Greeks and the Romans among which it spread were monogamous. It's one of these pagan things in Christianity, me think.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 04:19 pm
@Olivier5,
are we moderns thinking that back then monogamy was taken in the culture a sign of progress, of civilization?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 04:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I wish that I remembered more.....maybe this study was about an attempt at farming that greatly predated the time that we are talking about.

I would think so. The people who spread farming in middle Europe are thought to be those guys, apparently well fed:

Quote:
The LBK people settled on fluvial terraces and in the proximities of rivers. They were quick to identify regions of fertile loess. On it they raised a distinctive assemblage of crops and associated weeds in small plots, an economy that Gimbutas called a "garden type of civilization".[25] The difference between a crop and a weed in LBK contexts is the frequency. Crop foods are:

Triticum dicoccum, emmer wheat
Triticum monococcum, einkorn wheat
Pisum sativum, pea
Lens culinaris, lentil

Species that are found so rarely as to warrant classification as possible weeds are:
Hordeum, barley
Panicum miliaceum, broom corn millet
Secale cereale rye
Vicia ervilia, bitter vetch
Vicia faba, broad or field bean

[...] Hemp (Cannabis sativum) and flax (Linum usitatissimum) gave the LBK people the raw material of rope and cloth, which they no doubt manufactured at home as a cottage industry. From poppies (Papaver somniferum), introduced later from the Mediterranean, they may have manufactured palliative medicine.

The LBK people were stock-raisers, as well, with cattle favoured, though goats and swine are also recorded. Like farmers today, they may have used the better grain for themselves and the lower grades for the animals. The ubiquitous dogs are present here too, but scantly. Substantial wild faunal remains are found. The LBK supplemented their diets by hunting deer and wild boar in the open forests of Europe as it was then.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LBK
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 04:26 pm
@Olivier5,
Do you buy the theory of a great bio adversity, perhaps over population, would account for what we see?
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 04:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
I would say yes. Monogamy implies greater equality between husband and wife. When Mohammad capped the number of wives a muslim can have to 4 at any given time (if he can provide for them and their children), he did so in part to civilize his people, by improving women's rights.
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 09:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
so what is your theory? That humans were under great pressure from something at the time? Was it maybe a population problem, too many people to feed?


The following reply is not much about the topic here but an answer to your question having a general view and using a current example.

Check the policies in China.

There are social laws which are temporary until the complications that urged their enforcement are diminished.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/chinese-parents-can-now-have-more-than-one-child-why-many-say-they-wont/2014/01/10/2c9811de-73c5-11e3-8def-a33011492df2_story.html

Quote:
Until recently, having another child was only hypothetical to most Chinese parents. But now that the government has relaxed its one-child policy to permit second children if one parent is an only child, her theoretical question is a real one.

Permitting more than one child is surely a step toward freedom, one that will curb the forced abortions and fearful abandonments that have characterized so much of family planning in China for the past 35 years. Still, many Chinese aren’t going to rush to have more children.


Zheng Zhenzhen, a professor at the Institute of Population and Labor Economics in Beijing, told me that less than 2 percent of parents cite the state’s policy as the reason they have only one child. When Zheng and her fellow researchers asked parents of only children who were eligible to have a second, they initially said they wanted two. But when asked about the logistics of having a second child, they changed their response and said they intended to stop at one.


0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2015 09:45 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I would say yes. Monogamy implies greater equality between husband and wife. When Mohammad capped the number of wives a muslim can have to 4 at any given time (if he can provide for them and their children), he did so in part to civilize his people, by improving women's rights.


How women's rights can be improved by reducing the number of wives to a man?

What was in Mohamed times the custom for Muslims to have a wife? For marriage purposes, did they ask the woman or the parents without consulting the woman?

0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 12:57 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Christianity became monogamous because the Greeks and the Romans among which it spread were monogamous. It's one of these pagan things in Christianity, me think.
You think wrong as usual . If you had of read my earlier post, The Greeks had monogamy because if you were a homosexual you only needed one wife for reproduction . Christianity had nothing to do with monogamy, it accepted the status quo .

Oli owes me an apology .
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 01:52 am
Am I the only one who wonders if the 16 non breeders were alive or not? slaves or not? Where they killed at birth or not?

I am hoping that someone wants to talk about possible power and control mechanisms that would have keep this going for even a few generations.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 02:00 am
@hawkeye10,
I mentioned early on that the women had the power because of the crops . As hunting became ineffective, men took to herding . Women as gatherers had noticed the wild crop cycles and had planted the first crops . Men and women may even have lived separate lives . If one man was preferred, then he might have mated with several women based on long lost fertility rights that were very important to the first farmers .

The article mentions that all the other men were available so they were alive . It is difficult for one man to control 16 so I am guessing it was voluntary .
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 02:06 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
The article mentions that all the other men were available so they were alive .
did you answer how science can know this since all we have to go on is the DNA, and since 16 of 17 deposited none there is no evidence to go on......that science can not tell the difference between "did not" and "could not because they were dead"?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 02:10 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
It is difficult for one man to control 16 so I am guessing it was voluntary .

You cant really assume this.......it could be that some of the other 16 did mate, maybe as a reward for good behavior, but all of their babies were killed.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 02:26 am
@hawkeye10,
I assume it is in the nature of the mathematics . A bottleneck that branches out has different characteristics to a tunnel where every generation 16 out of 17 men are killed . What would kill so many men and leave one alive ?

Genetic variation would mean that the other men are there, or inbreeding would quickly damage the population .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 02:28 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
it could be that some of the other 16 did mate, maybe as a reward for good behavior, but all of their babies were killed.
I find it very unlikely 1 man can control 16, especially if he is going to allow who will have sex and then kill their children . Doesnt make sense...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 05:36 am
@Ionus,
Ionus, YOU owe me an apology for being a racist. And for pretending to disagree on monogamy, while just repeating what I am saying.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2015 05:50 am
@hawkeye10,
Not sure I understand your question.
0 Replies
 
 

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