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Has Anyone Since Buddha Reached Nirvana, Really?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 12:44 pm
It find it entertaining when I read about this idea of reaching "Nirvana" as its reaching according with the classical vague description of what Nirvana refers to immediately requires the ceasing of being. Reporting it would be impossible.

Very Happy
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 03:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I ask you this: Keeping all that in mind, is there even a remote possibility that what you experienced was simply an illusion of what you expected or hoped for?

Is there?


The mind is certainly a powerful thing. The act of meditation could be considered to be an act of self-hypnosis per se. However, to be seated on a hard floor with just a cushion, in an unheated room, on a chill Winter's morning, feeling warmth to the core, and a positively buzzing sensation literally all over, was not auto-suggested to me. At that point, my mentor was still coaching me to just empty my mind of all thought, by focussing on my breathing, the same way that I'd taught myself while an athlete, distance running.

When I later described what I'd felt, my mentor told me that she could see my aura extending both outwards, and upwards through the roof of our cottage.

So, to suggest that I willed this into reality, is a bit of a stretch, for I had no idea what to expect.

FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 06:14 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Nibbana is not described as the cessation of being:

Quote:
Nibbana
nibbana
(Skt: nirvana)
© 2005
Nibbana names the transcendent and singularly ineffable freedom that stands as the final goal of all the Buddha's teachings.

Defined in terms of what it is...

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."

— AN 3.32


There's no fire like passion,
no loss like anger,
no pain like the aggregates,
no ease other than peace.

Hunger: the foremost illness.
Fabrications: the foremost pain.
For one knowing this truth
as it actually is,
Unbinding
is the foremost ease.

Freedom from illness: the foremost good fortune.
Contentment: the foremost wealth.
Trust: the foremost kinship.
Unbinding: the foremost ease.
— Dhp 202-205


The enlightened, constantly
absorbed in jhana,
persevering,
firm in their effort:
they touch Unbinding,
the unexcelled safety
from bondage.
...


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca3/nibbana.html
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 07:55 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Quote:
I ask you this: Keeping all that in mind, is there even a remote possibility that what you experienced was simply an illusion of what you expected or hoped for?

Is there?


The mind is certainly a powerful thing. The act of meditation could be considered to be an act of self-hypnosis per se. However, to be seated on a hard floor with just a cushion, in an unheated room, on a chill Winter's morning, feeling warmth to the core, and a positively buzzing sensation literally all over, was not auto-suggested to me. At that point, my mentor was still coaching me to just empty my mind of all thought, by focussing on my breathing, the same way that I'd taught myself while an athlete, distance running.

When I later described what I'd felt, my mentor told me that she could see my aura extending both outwards, and upwards through the roof of our cottage.

So, to suggest that I willed this into reality, is a bit of a stretch, for I had no idea what to expect.




With all the respect in the world, Builder...you may be deluding yourself...and your mentor deluding both herself and you.

The correct...AND ONLY CORRECT...answer to my question is: Yes, of course there is that possibility.

Any qualifications, such as the ones you offered, are gratuitous and self-serving to what you want to be the case.

Hey...just about everyone under the influence of a religion does this. It is to be expected.

You may not want to hear this, but if you read over the comments made here by the adherents of this particular religion...and you will see fundamentalist Christianity and Islam being mirrored in a carnival mirror.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 08:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Any qualifications, such as the ones you offered, are gratuitous and self-serving to what you want to be the case.

Hey...just about everyone under the influence of a religion does this. It is to be expected.


Again, with respect Frank; there's two holes in this comment; post-herpetic neuralgia in the nerves of the eyeball take five or more years to stop shooting chronic pain messages to the brain. Sometimes the pain lasts till death.

To heal those nerve endings within six months (give or take a month) astounded two doctors (one GP and one Opthalmologist).


Secondly, I'm not a religious adherent. My mentor might have received instruction from Sai Baba, but there were no religious overtones to her instruction.

Meditation doesn't need a belief system at all. No chanting or ohming. I just used the same counting method for breath control that I used when distance running, to empty my mind of extraneous thoughts.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 08:34 pm
@FBM,
It is, read more and read better... Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 08:48 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Quote:
Any qualifications, such as the ones you offered, are gratuitous and self-serving to what you want to be the case.

Hey...just about everyone under the influence of a religion does this. It is to be expected.


Again, with respect Frank; there's two holes in this comment; post-herpetic neuralgia in the nerves of the eyeball take five or more years to stop shooting chronic pain messages to the brain. Sometimes the pain lasts till death.

To heal those nerve endings within six months (give or take a month) astounded two doctors (one GP and one Opthalmologist).


Secondly, I'm not a religious adherent. My mentor might have received instruction from Sai Baba, but there were no religious overtones to her instruction.

Meditation doesn't need a belief system at all. No chanting or ohming. I just used the same counting method for breath control that I used when distance running, to empty my mind of extraneous thoughts.


With even more respect than ever, Builder...the bottom line is that Catholics who have gone to Lourdes for cures...have been "miraculously" cured.

Makes one wonder!

People who have prayed for cures for loved ones...have had "miraculous" cures obtained.

Also makes one wonder.

Meditation...and Buddhism...DO NEED beliefs, Builder...and you are exhibiting some of them here. You "believe" (or guess) that because of "X"..."Y" resulted.

You may be kidding yourself.

But almost nobody who is invested in a belief system ever wants to acknowledge that kind of thing...and it seems you have decided to insist that the "X" you mentioned resulted in the "Y" you also mentioned.

So I would ask a variation on my original question:

Is there even a remote possibility that the physical changes (essentially cures) you experienced is attributable to anything other than the "meditation?"

(Hint: Like that original question, there is only one correct answer to this question.)

FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 08:58 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

It is, read more and read better... Wink


Got a link?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 09:14 pm
@FBM,
...oh boy here we go...think about what you just quoted what it implies and you got your answer...also ask JLNobody or if you want a Buddhist monk on the implications, I can't do your home work for you...

Why would anyone reaching Nirvana come back ?
Someone who ceases to have, cravings, needs, wants, opinions, passions, is dead ! It has nothing to report or speak about !!! It doesn't even has the will to teach or to enlighten others...first because each path is a personal path...for starters by definition it couldn't care less unless what it has reach instead was a close to Nirvana state but never total full fledged Nirvana !

PS - I wont lie to you admitting there is a certain something interesting about it. Similarly Buddhism is profoundly and deliberately obscure and often dangerously misleading. Very much like high understanding of Metaphysics or top notch Theology there is deep profound wisdom in there but the languaging is so far advanced and so detached from normal usage that the creators themselves that gave origin to such currents of thought have taken or expressed what they meant in the wrong way through normal language....lost in translation is the closest I can give you for metaphor.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 09:26 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I am deeply aware on the profound importance of Theology and Metaphysics and yet my interpretation of Being, God, Reality, or whatever people want to call it (its all the same ****) is totally different from 99.9% of other peoples understanding of it. They have at best an instinct that points, to union, set, balance, and cycling...but then they ad folklore Santa speaking Claus and what not...their instinct is right the folklore is just colouring to satisfy human daily needs of comfort.

While existing "God" is dead in more ways then Nietzsche imagined...Nirvana is a pretty good metaphor explaining why "God" is dead !
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 09:35 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
If you're familiar with the Buddha's enlightenment stories (there are a few versions) in the Pali suttas, he at first decided that he wouldn't teach. He thought it would be a waste of time, since people are too attached to their own desires and whatnot. Then he realized that there are a few "with only a little dust in their eyes" who might benefit from what he had to say, such as his 5 ascetic companions that he'd been hanging out with just before. In short, it was an act of selfless compassion. Selflessness and compassion are both training principles to be nurtured by meditation.

The question, "Why would anyone reaching Nirvana come back?" is predicated on a selfish perspective. Attaining nibbana is not death. The Buddha is said to have taught for 45 years after attaining it.

That said, a paccekabuddha is one who does realize nibbana on his/her own (no teacher) and does not teach. Not sure if it'd be possible to identify such a person, though.

Just to clarify: By discussing these things, I'm not asserting that I believe any of it. I'm just discussing it as a philosophical system.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 09:44 pm
@FBM,
No it is not... balancing which is the keyword here means you don't have to be compassionate...you don't have to stop a personal journey nor do you have the need to speed it up...things take exactly the time they need to take and each pace is the right pace to walk the walk...Nirvana requires full detachment not Christian compassion...compassion is an advanced evolution in natural selection, Neo-Darwinism, coop grouping for bigger efficiency at complex tasking in science lingo...philosophically lingo it reports in ways an advance state of mind but nonetheless not a final state nor the ultimate state...the ultimate state is death because there is nothing else to search for to ask about or to explain...realising the whole reality is perfect as is with all its misery so that pleasure has meaning when pleasure comes and that all things are both worth and in vain ultimate leads you to inaction...and ultimately ceasing to be.

"God" is the reason for all things but in itself it has no ratio reason or purpose justifying him because he is the justifier not the justified. No causation for him but rather the cause of other things. (sub sets)
"God" is the source of all that exists in time but itself it has no source no beginning or end no walk to walk rather it is the walking path itself the way on which minor things walk. Because there is no nothing other then everything, it cannot move or change its perfect finished and complete nature...there is nothing behind or beyond him to move from or to move for...in sum nothing to strive for. Its done !
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 10:10 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/compassion.htm

Quote:
The Buddha taught that to realize enlightenment, a person must develop two qualities: wisdom and compassion. Wisdom and compassion are sometimes compared to two wings that work together to enable flying, or two eyes that work together to see deeply.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karu%E1%B9%87%C4%81

Quote:
Theravada Buddhism[edit]

In Theravāda Buddhism, karuṇā is one of the four "divine abodes" (brahmavihāra), along with loving kindness (Pāli: mettā), sympathetic joy (mudita) and equanimity (upekkha).[2] In the Pali canon, the Buddha recommends cultivating these four virtuous mental states to both householders and monastics.[3] When one develops these four states, the Buddha counsels radiating them in all directions, as in the following stock canonical phrase regarding karuṇā:

He keeps pervading the first direction—as well as the second direction, the third, and the fourth—with an awareness imbued with compassion. Thus he keeps pervading above, below, & all around, everywhere & in every respect the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with compassion: abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.[4]

Such a practice purifies one's mind, avoids evil-induced consequences, leads to happiness in one's present life and, if there is a future karmic rebirth, it will be in a heavenly realm.[5]

The Pali commentaries distinguish between karuṇā and mettā in the following complementary manner: Karuna is the desire to remove harm and suffering (ahita-dukkha-apanaya-kāmatā) from others; while mettā is the desire to bring about the well-being and happiness (hita-sukha-upanaya-kāmatā) of others.[6]


Another part of attaining nibbana is the realization of the truth of anatta. Once anatta is understood, selfishness becomes impossible.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 10:24 pm
@FBM,
You do realize by now after so many years in the forums that I don't follow fashion or herds or commandments...I take them for advise and I tweak upon them...you on the other hand follow the scriptures...from Buddhism I take what it matters and if Buddhism preaches compassion is because Buddhism must be practised while alive not when you become one with Nirvana or dead...I suppose you didn't get that part either...its the pragmatical side of Buddhism...preach to the most advance step before the last step which is death and therefore useless for humanity....but my motto while speaking a lot here n there is that ultimately preaching is worthless and useless people wont learn more then they can carry ! I speak to the walls as most passionate teachers do... if by accident someone is listening, well, then he knew it already....
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 10:28 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I'm not particularly interested in what you or anyone else does with their personal understanding or practices, including the Mahayana development; I'm only presenting early Buddhist philosophy as it appears in the Pali Canon. When someone mischaracterizes those teachings by injecting non-canonical ideas, I simply point out that those ideas do not appear in the original.

Of course, we're all free to take or leave what we like of those teachings, but that doesn't change the content of the Canon.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 10:34 pm
@FBM,
Let me be arrogant and selfish and parochial because well its fun...my teachings are better, more sophisticated, have more substance, and ad to it !
How about that for being silly on the web, eh ? And the worst is that I mean it !
Whether you care to think on what I just posted or not its of course your choice and it expresses your level of comfort with my thoughts, personally I couldn't care less...in fact that's why I am informal and essentially preach to the walls...
Be it the way it must be !
Take your pace follow your path not mine !
All good "brother" !
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 10:37 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
All good, bruvah! http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/icon_thumright.gif
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 11:00 pm
@FBM,
I prefer not to base my quest for spiritual understanding on the original writings of ancients, even the Buddha. I prefer the assumption that the understanding of our fundamental human nature has evolved and that contemporary Buddhas may be enlightened not as a result of scholarship but as a consequence of practice.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 11:03 pm
@JLNobody,
No problem with that. Like I said above, the only time I chime in is when somebody misrepresents the original teachings by inserting non-canonical ideas or distorting them somehow, like claiming such and such a concept or practice originated with the Buddha when it didn't, or vice versa.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2015 11:12 pm
@JLNobody,
..and period. Nothing to ad upon that !
(Great to see you around old J !) Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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