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Has Anyone Since Buddha Reached Nirvana, Really?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 04:55 am
@Xocolatl,
Well if one guy alone reached Nirvana then necessarily no one else knows what that means. The meaning of the concept is mute/null.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 05:26 pm
@Xocolatl,
Xocolatl wrote:

Who knows if the Buddha reached Nirvana?

He said so yes, and he had lots of interesting things to say. Many I agree with more than any other religion. Yet we have to take the man's word for it; and that's that.

Same for the prophets of other religions and cults we have today. All their leaders claim to know God and have reached their own ''enlightenment''.

In the end I think they are all true and all false at the same time, because our reality is what we make of it.


No where else, no other religion talks about the mind, the five aggregates, condition co-arising, impermanence, no-self, or nirvana. None, there is nothing like it.

He couldn't have just made it up. Not only that but they each have tangible consequences that can be experienced so they aren't dogmas. They are real characteristics of reality.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 07:03 pm
@Krumple,
The quicker path is to shot yourself in the head. Pronto you there!
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 07:18 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

The quicker path is to shot yourself in the head. Pronto you there!


Na, according to the text if you commit suicide youll fall into the lower realms. Suicide doesn't lead to nirvana. However when you are enlightened you have full control over leaving samsara. You can pass away at will.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 07:20 pm
@Krumple,
...aaaah, so "civilized" suicide is allowed? Wink
Mathematicians call it the null set...I don't buy it.
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:33 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...aaaah, so "civilized" suicide is allowed? Wink
Mathematicians call it the null set...I don't buy it.


Its based on the mind at the moment of death.

Unenlightened mind will be led to its next birth based on that moments mind and the karma associated. Essentially there are levels of consciousness and after the death this seed consciousness moves up or down within these levels based on your karmic push.

If you have certain attachments or aversions your consciousness will be led by them culminating in your next birth.

It can be in the hell realms.
It can be as a hungry ghost.
It can be as an animal.
It can be as a human.
It can be as an Asura.
It can be as a god.

The enlightened mind transcends all future birth. However the Bodhisattva chooses to endure another birth for the sole purpose of teaching dharma to allow other beings a chance to escape samsara.

You don't need to buy it. It does not matter if you believe this is how it is or not.

The underline principal is seen through the aspects of reality we do have access of.

Such as the no-self dharma. The Buddha redundantly examines where the self can be found, what it is composed of, how it arises and how it is in constant change. There is nothing else like it.

Or the twelve links of dependant arising. He explains in detail how the experience of existence perpetuates and how it can be broken. The process by which its broken and the result when it is broken.

Others as well, equanimity, impermanence, the experience of Jhana. All can be tested now in this life at this moment without any need to blindly believe. They can be investigated, faith is not required.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 10:51 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
Its based on the mind at the moment of death.


What's your thoughts on the manufactured fear of death, and how that fear is manipulated in people?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:03 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Quote:
Its based on the mind at the moment of death.


What's your thoughts on the manufactured fear of death, and how that fear is manipulated in people?


Well it seems like a broad fear. Mostly based on uncertainty but it can have other aspects. All we currently have access to is our current experience which really isn't all that bad but the thought of nonexistence is difficult to grasp.

We are attached to living even if it's miserable for most it still seems better than not existing. Unless you are suicidal then it's flipped.

Anticipation of the worst case scenario is what causes most of the fear it seems. Yet it's not a very good motivator. People would rather distract themselves with living than ponder it. I don't blame them though.

I don't think pushing the fear is good in any way not even if it's to spark change in a person's behavior because it becomes a false change. They are only acting as an attempt to avoid what you made them afraid of.

Besides no one really enjoys being afraid unless it's entertaining but for the most part I think it's counter productive.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2017 11:38 pm
@Krumple,
Thanks. I was more alluding to the fear the various religions use to guilt people into a kind of subjugation of reality.

We all sleep every night (drug addicts aside) and that's basically death, if you call awareness to be life.

I've twice knocked on death's door, and I'd welcome that long sleep.

Still here, but quite content if I'm to "go" tomorrow.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2017 08:37 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Thanks. I was more alluding to the fear the various religions use to guilt people into a kind of subjugation of reality.

We all sleep every night (drug addicts aside) and that's basically death, if you call awareness to be life.

I've twice knocked on death's door, and I'd welcome that long sleep.

Still here, but quite content if I'm to "go" tomorrow.


I touched on the religious push of fear when I talked about using it to change a person's behavior. The person only changes superficially to avoid the punishment, its not how they would really behave had you lifted that concept.

True thoughts are what impact karmic destiny not motivation of punishment avoidance.
Xocolatl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2017 10:16 am
@Krumple,
There is nothing like it?

Maybe no major religion, though I do think Buddha got a lot from Hinduism.

But there are plenty of theories of reincarnation and different worlds and realms out there, and plenty of religions that don't teach the same dogma as the five big ones of today.

I am not saying he made it all up, I said that everyone creates their own reality. Which makes his experience as valid as it makes anyone who doesn't believe his experience.

Which means it is true and not true at the same time. Which is the contradiction we call reality.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2017 10:46 am
@Xocolatl,
Xocolatl wrote:

There is nothing like it?

Maybe no major religion, though I do think Buddha got a lot from Hinduism.

But there are plenty of theories of reincarnation and different worlds and realms out there, and plenty of religions that don't teach the same dogma as the five big ones of today.

I am not saying he made it all up, I said that everyone creates their own reality. Which makes his experience as valid as it makes anyone who doesn't believe his experience.

Which means it is true and not true at the same time. Which is the contradiction we call reality.


Reality doesn't work according to how you want it to be. It is the way it is regardless if the observer. This whole idea that reality is subjective is nonsense. We wouldn't even be able to communicate if reality was subjectively based on what the observer wanted.

It would mean you could fly just by wanting to defy gravity. You can't unless you want to split hairs. Sure we can invent ways to fly but it's due to working within the rules of reality. You can't just float into the air based on your will to do it.

There are not two truths that are contradictory true. It would mean anything no matter how silly it is, is true.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2017 04:37 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
True thoughts are what impact karmic destiny not motivation of punishment avoidance.


Punishment avoidance. Pretty-much sums it up, meaning religion today.

Rock in to confession, and dump your guilt trips for the week before.

Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2017 04:57 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Quote:
True thoughts are what impact karmic destiny not motivation of punishment avoidance.


Punishment avoidance. Pretty-much sums it up, meaning religion today.

Rock in to confession, and dump your guilt trips for the week before.




Unfortunately yes but it's not necessarily everyones fault we have ideas like this. It gets handed down that we can dismiss fault simply by stepping into a darkened telephone booth and telling someone you think you messed up.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2017 05:15 pm
@Krumple,
Or the Protestant path I was taught; that you ask for forgiveness, and it is granted, along with the guilt trip that He died for our sins, so we would not perish, but have everlasting life.

Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2017 05:46 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

Or the Protestant path I was taught; that you ask for forgiveness, and it is granted, along with the guilt trip that He died for our sins, so we would not perish, but have everlasting life.




I don't see how someone else can absolve you of anything.

This whole idea that you are born of sin because your great^100 grandparents made a choice and now you are just as guilty for their action. Then you can be absolved of this if you believe a god incarnated itself to die just for you.

Why did he need to die to make it work? Shouldn't the Romans be praised for killing him? Had they not been convinced to kill him would it have thrown a monkey wrench into God's plan?

Jesus wouldn't even be able to die today if it happened this day in age. Not very often fanatical zealots get killed for protesting church corruption. Good thing god chose the right point in history where you could be put to death over silly violations.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Mar, 2017 05:58 pm
@Krumple,
Yeah, I don't hold to the Protestant beliefs either. Christianity is such a young religion, comparitively speaking.

Lots of witches were burned at the stake for their beliefs, and it's political dissidence that'll get you killed today, often under some twisted "logic" that it's God's will.
0 Replies
 
Xocolatl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2017 06:05 am
@Krumple,
I do not believe that 'reality'' has to do with the rules of the material aspects of this world.

I know my view is unorthodox. But I believe that 'reality'' overal is an experience in our mind. Who after all can tell that if I think something is red, I am seeing exactly the same thing as you?

Yes, we can both agree it is red but that doesn't mean we see the same thing. That's what I am talking about.

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2017 06:57 am
@Xocolatl,
Experience is experience. The same way you can't tell if your red is the same as my red you can't tell what perception of mind really is.
If you are going to put redness in question don't forget to put "mind" in the basket to.

Pulling the coinage of "mind" as the ground of existence from your azz is not more legitimate than I pulling "computation" as the ground of existence from my azz. If anything computations is a more abstract more general approach.
I rather speak of integrated systems then speak of minds.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Mar, 2017 08:23 am
@Xocolatl,
Xocolatl wrote:

I do not believe that 'reality'' has to do with the rules of the material aspects of this world.

I know my view is unorthodox. But I believe that 'reality'' overal is an experience in our mind. Who after all can tell that if I think something is red, I am seeing exactly the same thing as you?

Yes, we can both agree it is red but that doesn't mean we see the same thing. That's what I am talking about.




This was tested, all light has a frequency range. You wont get another color subjectively. The only way this doesnt happen is if the person lacks cones in their eyes for certain colors but that just makes the colors dull or brown.
0 Replies
 
 

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