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Fervent beliefs - do we need 'em?

 
 
dlowan
 
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:32 pm
DO "the best lack all convictions while the worst are full of passionate intensity" as Yeats said?? The Second Coming


This is a funny little opinion piece from Australia about the perils of belief:

The awesome power of unshakeable belief: it works for some people.
By Peter Wear
Posted Friday, July 11, 2003


Thorkild Grosboel does not believe in God, or the resurrection. He does not believe in eternal life after death. But what makes Thorkild a truly spectacular atheist is that he's the Lutheran pastor of Taarbaek, a town of 51,000 near the Danish capital, Copenhagen.

Last month his Bishop, Lise-Lotte Rebel, ordered him to retract his opinions and apologise. She has now suspended him from his duties, causing heated debate amongst the 85 per cent of Danes who belong to the Evangelical Lutheran Church. His congregation supports Thorkild, and he's attracting some powerful allies, like Mogens Lindhardt, head of Denmark's Theological College of Education, who has described his views as "refreshing."

Refreshing? A churchman abandoning his beliefs? Absolutely, for we seem to be mired in a moment of history where scepticism and doubt have become almost treasonous. All around us, people who exhibit fervent belief - in almost anything - their eyes sparkling, faces flushed, convictions tumbling from their lips, are treated as national treasures. Haven't enough tottering beliefs crashed and burned in recent months to remind us that belief is an irrational state, wherein we so badly want something to be true that we will reject all evidence to the contrary? Beliefs can be dangerous. Beliefs can kill.

The righteousness of invading Iraq was swiftly elevated by Howard, Bush and Blair to the status of a profound belief. It had to be. There was no demonstrable proof, despite the months of weapons inspections, that Saddam Hussein harboured any threat to our security. It almost became a clash of faiths. Those who protested against the attack, the traitorous non-believers, were herded out of the way to let the troops past, like Catholics in the Shankhill when the Orangemen march. And now? The central belief is being discredited. The satanic poisons and biological weapons probably never existed. We have made, as believers so often do, complete bloody fools of ourselves.

Another hot spot of oft-professed belief was our erstwhile Governor-general who, in his frequent conversations with God, seems to have received a lot of bad advice. But then belief is a great source of bad advice. Rugby league star Ben Ikin has been reported visiting Brisbane schools and telling kids that confidence is the key to success.

That's not a fact, it's simply his belief. Did Ben or the teacher point this out to the kids? I hope they were watching when, several nights later, Ben threw a long, confident pass to his Bronco's winger. It was intercepted by a Newcastle player who dashed away to score the try that was decisive in the Bronco's defeat. Holding the pass back, hesitancy and doubt, were the keys to success.

Boosting and self-promotion are everywhere, and belief is the oil on which it all runs. Kids are repeatedly advised to "believe in themselves" a process which seems to involve telling yourself greater and greater lies about how wonderful you are until at last, exhausted by the onslaught, your judgement calls it quits, your common sense and modesty walk out on you, and you begin to believe that it's all true.

A dramatic public example is the education and employment entrepreneur Sarina Russo, in comparison with whom most of us would appear to be such abject failures we should be seriously questioning our right to exist. Ms Russo is, her website proclaims, "The Queensland Icon of Today" who has harnessed, "the power of one woman's self-belief, a power that lifted her from failure to superstardom in business".

She is, it announces "an international celebrity" since she was selected "as one of the world's 40 leading entrepreneurs for the year 2002 and received the award in a grand castle in France.

"Sarina Russo has achieved massive success as an educator, businesswoman and property owner. She owns three buildings (two high rise) in the Brisbane CBD as well as residential properties."

I rest my case, and humbly suggest a brief respite from such seething certainty. Might we put aside one day of the year where a modest celebration of uncertainty and doubt could be permitted? I propose the feast of St. Neverwas, the patron saint of blessed indifference. We could have a short non-denominational service, and I know just the man to conduct it. He lives near Copenhagen, and doesn't have a lot on at the moment.


The awesome power of unshakeable belief


What do you think of belief?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:35 pm
I must say, I DO think that belief in god oughta be part of the job description for ministers and priests and such! And all those damn nuns and stuff, hopping around dressed in civvies when they oughta be in those long thingies with funny hats.
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mikey
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:40 pm
fairytales, myths, legends...

although i do believe in mermaids. at times.
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rufio
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:49 pm
We all have to believe in something, even if it's only that the sun will rise tommorrow. Life is about believing in things and taking a risk that they might not be true. If nothing was certain, than we'd never get anywhere.

And since when does someone become a pastor who doesn't believe in god?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 06:50 pm
Yeah - but this is about ALL beliefs - political ones etc.

Of course, it makes sense to act as though one believes the sun will rise tomorrow, and that the earth will be firm undeer one's feet and so forth - but what of our fervent isms?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:30 pm
It's impossible to live without beliefs.

Everything you think is true is a belief.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:38 pm
Re: Beliefs - do we need 'em?
dlowan wrote:
That's not a fact, it's simply his belief. Did Ben or the teacher point this out to the kids? I hope they were watching when, several nights later, Ben threw a long, confident pass to his Bronco's winger. It was intercepted by a Newcastle player who dashed away to score the try that was decisive in the Bronco's defeat. Holding the pass back, hesitancy and doubt, were the keys to success.


Does the author if this piece know that hesitancy and doubt were the keys to success? Or is that just his belief? How does he know the passer didn't hesitate because of doubt and cause the interception?

The whole article is a paradox itself.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:42 pm
Lol! I know.


But - to be fair, I think he speaks of FERVENT beliefs - beliefs that one does not see as beliefs, but as incontrovertible realities.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:43 pm
For example the belief that you exist?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:46 pm
LOL

I am not so very sure about that.

Makes sense to go along with the illusion, though.

Otherwise I might believe I was starving.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:48 pm
Well, I'm goingto hea doff to sleep here in a bit and I have a belief that I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning and I'm sticking with it. If I don't ever wake up I'll glady conceed that I was wrong! Wink
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:49 pm
It is crazy for someone to be a priest and not believe in the basic tenets of the faith he is ordained (and paid) to teach. This is bizarre.

I agree with Craven re beliefs.

Further, they don't have to be religious--but everyone has accumilated a set of beliefs that (IMO) program their responses and actions to everything they encounter.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:54 pm
Agreed. This is a given.

What I believe(heehee) however, is being discussed, however ineptly in this little article, is the effect of fervency.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 07:59 pm
For example the belief that you are alive?

I know it sounds like a diversion but it's not. The idiot's point is basically that bad beliefs shouldn't be held.

No kidding, but people will simply hold different beliefs about what consitutes bad.
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kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 08:08 pm
I think that we do all have beliefs, but the attachment of importance to one's beliefs is the part that doesn't need to be there.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 08:09 pm
Sure Craven. I getcha.

But - I believe the idiot's point is that fervent beliefs are bad - which is, of course, a possibly fervent belief - I know we keep disappearing up our own bums - but I think there is a reaonable if obvious point about the holding of fervent and uncriticised beliefs.

Anyhoo - I just thought it was fun - with the minister and all.

I knew that lots of ministers no longer believe in god - but this is the first time I saw one punished for it!

Do we think that minsiters oughta believe in god?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 08:11 pm
kickycan wrote:
I think that we do all have beliefs, but the attachment of importance to one's beliefs is the part that doesn't need to be there.


I passionately agree with you wise monkey!!!!!

There shall be no fervency in ideology!!!!

We MUST be dispassionate.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 08:16 pm
Having the faith you are employed to minister is a prerequisite to ministering that faith.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 08:28 pm
dlowan wrote:
but I think there is a reaonable if obvious point about the holding of fervent and uncriticised beliefs.


Like the fervent and uncriticized belief that we exist?

Seriously Deb, I don't think you get it because you continue to fail to differentiate between the "bad" fervent and uncriticized beliefs and the others, some of which are necessary to function at all.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 08:57 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
dlowan wrote:
but I think there is a reaonable if obvious point about the holding of fervent and uncriticised beliefs.


Like the fervent and uncriticized belief that we exist?

Seriously Deb, I don't think you get it because you continue to fail to differentiate between the "bad" fervent and uncriticized beliefs and the others, some of which are necessary to function at all.


I don't know as you'd call my belief that we exist fervent - I hold that I have no proof that anything outside my consciousness exists - I DO consider it ridiculous and dead-endy to question it all the time, though - so yes, I do consider it necessary to function at all. My position on it is what's his name's riposte to Descartes - given that we ignore Descartes' own answer to his dilemma - that a benevolent god exists and would not allow Descartes' posited evil demon to fool us - which is "so what"?

Yes, there are some beliefs we need to make life reasonable and actable in - (I am not entirely sure that they are uncriticised, though - are they not criticised in every Philosophy 1a course, for instance? Perhaps you have other types of belief in mind?) and I am happy to discuss them, if you wish to - what about ideological fervency?

Eg - I imagine some here would argue that we need such in order to fight against the ideological fervency that threatens us - those who believe we are in WW III.

Yeats' poem can very validly be read as a call to passionate intensity on the part of "the best".
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