Would the World be Better off Without Religion?

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

There is nothing to learn about any gods in that story, Neo. The only thing that can be learned (sorta) is that whoever wrote it...was not a very bright person...not a very clever one.

Perhaps our power of discernment should be directed at those who read the 'story'.

1 Reply

@neologist,

I've read the story...many times.

Why don't you give it a shot? It may surprise you.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I know, Frank.
The lie didn't take place until ch. 3.

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@neologist,

Here’s the story in digest form:

There is a god…who creates everything in the world…with a man being one of the last things made. The man is named Adam.

The god then makes a mate for Adam…who ends up being called Eve.

The god plants a garden…and places Adam and Eve into it.

There were lots of trees…but two are especially mentioned: The tree of the knowledge of good and evil…and the tree of (everlasting) life.

The god tells Adam he may eat the fruit of any tree EXCEPT the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.(He never mentioned that Adam cannot eat of the tree of everlasting life…and he never seems to mention to Eve that she cannot eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (She apparently gets that information second hand from Adam.)

“The serpent” tempts Eve into eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Why the tree is there is not explained. Why the “cunning” serpent is there…is not explained. Why the serpent didn’t get Eve to eat of the tree of eternal life BEFORE eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not explained. Since some people, like you, think they knew there was something wrong or bad about dying…they should have eaten of the tree of eternal life first chance. Why they did not…is not explained.

So…we have two people in a situation of temptation (for no particular reason)…with a cunning tempter there to tempt them into eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…and thereby becoming like gods, knowing the difference between good and evil…and, as any 5 year old would guess…they eat the forbidden fruit. And all the rest of humanity is tortured by trying to justify a story that is so absurd it should not even be in a comic book.

So…what was your point about Chapter 3?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

We can discuss this paragraph by paragraph from Genesis 2:7 if you like.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Ignoring the difficulties...

Speaking of strawmen, I didn't say that every word or every act of every believer throughout history has been hate-filled. How about responding directly to the content of my post? Are those passages in the image I posted really from Christian scripture or not?

1 Reply

@FBM,

FBM wrote:

Speaking of strawmen, I didn't say that every word or every act of every believer throughout history has been hate-filled. How about responding directly to the content of my post? Are those passages in the image I posted really from Christian scripture or not?

The "citations" are not exact quotes from any source I can find. They are misrepresentations of texts that can be taken in other ways.

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http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-21.htm

20"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21"If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/14-34.htm

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Thessalonians+2:14-16

14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[a]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6%3A5

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

http://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/21-18.htm

If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.…

http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Mk10.29-30

29 Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, nthere is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and ofor the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold pnow in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, qwith persecutions, and in rthe age to come eternal life.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+22:28-29

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

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http://mic.com/articles/121596/bibles-guide-to-a-successful-fundamentalist-christian-marriage?utm_source=huffpost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=partner

Quote:

7 Simple Tips for a Successful Fundamentalist Christian Marriage, According to the Bible
Tom McKay's avatar image By Tom McKay July 01, 2015

Republican presidential candidates from moderate contender Jeb Bush and evangelical Christian Mike Huckabee to the truly aggressive Donald Trump all agree: The Supreme Court ruling that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide Friday is terrible. Many of them leaned on arguments gleaned from the Bible to make their point, insisting God's word is a literal instruction manual for public policy in the 21st century.

But what if that shoe was on the other foot? Here are eight passages taken verbatim from Christianity's holy book that, if as applied as virulently as the scant references to same-sex relationships in the Bible, might give Americans some disturbing tips on how to manage a truly successful fundamentalist marriage.

Note: For consistency, all passages are taken from Bible Gateway's searchable online archive of the New International Version.

1. Let the husband run the show.
"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything." - Ephesians 5:22-24
...
2. No, really, he's in charge.
"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Corinthians 11:3
...
3. Seriously, listen to your husband and otherwise shut up.
"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." - 1 Timothy 2:11-15
...
4. Polygamy is fine.
"If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights." - Exodus 21:10
...
5. Single ladies, marry your rapist and never divorce.
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29
...
6. Rape slaves to ensure a healthy bloodline.
"... so [Sarai] said to Abram, 'The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.' Abram agreed to what Sarai said." - Genesis 16:2
...
7. Murder your cheating spouse.
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife — with the wife of his neighbor — both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death." - Leviticus 20:10
...
But this is a selective reading of the Bible, trimmed to its worst parts!

That's precisely the point. These passages come from many sources that range significantly in style, message and tone, and they're mostly over 2,000 years old. The Good Book has to be read in its original context. Reducing the Bible to a series of literal instructions devoid of that perspective makes many of the passages seem extremist...

Keeping in mind that:

Matthew 5:17-20King James Version (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Reply

@FBM,

FBM wrote:

. .. . Keeping in mind that:

Matthew 5:17-20King James Version (KJV)

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You left out vs. 20:

Quote:

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Color emphasis mine.
Does the use of the word 'fulfil' make sense here?
The (Mosaic) Law is still relevant; but we are no longer under it's obligation. As Paul explained:

Quote:

So the Law became our guardian leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian. (Galatians 3: 24-25)

2 Replies

@neologist,

Are you saying that because you "are no longer under a guardian"...

...the things the god found to be an abomination...

...it no longer finds to be an abomination?

That doesn't seem to make sense.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Some translations refer to the (Mosaic) Law as a "tutor" because it taught us to find the Christ, He being the one who fullfilled the law by keeping it entirely.

That is why the Law is still relevant, even though we are no longer bound by it.

1 Reply

@neologist,

You did not answer my question, Neo. You avoided it.

The god of the Bible...the god Jesus worshiped...the god of the Old Testament...

...indicates that certain activities are abominable...in fact, deserving of summary death.

Are you saying that because you "are no longer under a guardian"...

...the things the god found to be an abomination...

...it no longer finds to be an abomination?

That doesn't seem to make sense.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

FBM wrote:
. .. . Keeping in mind that:

Matthew 5:17-20King James Version (KJV)

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
You left out vs. 20:
Quote:
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Color emphasis mine.
Does the use of the word 'fulfil' make sense here?
The (Mosaic) Law is still relevant; but we are no longer under it's obligation. As Paul explained:
Quote:
So the Law became our guardian leading to Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian. (Galatians 3: 24-25)

Does seem all pretty self-contradictory, doesn't it?

1 Reply

In any case, in his letter to the Galatians, Paul, when speaking of the Law...was primarily (perhaps exclusively) speaking of circumcision and dietary prohibitions.

Paul was focused, almost to a fault, with recruiting gentiles to the new religion...and the laws regarding circumcision and dietary restrictions were becoming a problem...both with the gentile converts and with the Jews who wanted to keep the religion Jewish.

The notion that modern Christianity is free to any degree from the thrust of the god of the Old Testament is more than just contradictory...it is an absurdity.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

You did not answer my question, Neo. You avoided it.

The god of the Bible...the god Jesus worshiped...the god of the Old Testament...

...indicates that certain activities are abominable...in fact, deserving of summary death.

Are you saying that because you "are no longer under a guardian"...

...the things the god found to be an abomination...

...it no longer finds to be an abomination?

That doesn't seem to make sense.

Abominations are still abominations. Instead of summary death, the punishment is spiritual death, removal from the congregation.

This would be a good place for a long explanation of John 5:28-29.

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@FBM,

FBM wrote:

Does seem all pretty self-contradictory, doesn't it?

You would have to explain why you think that. The Law, complex, though it was, had only one purpose.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

...to...

Quote:

Does the use of the word 'fulfil' make sense here?

...then...

Quote:

But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian. (Galatians 3: 24-25)

Looks like a break in continuity there. We somehow went from not "one jot or one tittle" to not having a guardian, all in the same book.

1 Reply

@FBM,

One of the main themes of the Hebrew text, the most importsnt, IMO, was to certify the identity of the Messiah. But the subplots, jots, and tittles are not random. Some have profound implications, such as laws against, robbery, adultery, and murder. They obviously carry over into Christianity. Some, like dietary laws are laden with symbolism. For example, the lifting of the dietary laws in the 10th chapter of Acts corresponded with the acceptance of Cornelius, the first Gentile to become a Christian. As God declared "Stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed" (Acts 10:15). I am not sure if this answers your question.

Feedback necessary.

1 Reply

@neologist,

It was interesting, but it led to to another question (or maybe the same question revisited?): So how are to to understand the jots and tittles comment, "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" in light of the subsequent lifting/dropping of this or that law? That still seems contradictory.

0 Replies

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