48
   

Would the World be Better off Without Religion?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 10:55 pm
Quote:
Would the World be Better off Without Religion?
John Lennon thought as much:
"Imagine"

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


Good discussion here:
http://able2know.org/topic/50801-1
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 01:46 pm
@oralloy,
[quoteOthers may have had differeecant experiences, but no religion has ever tried to oppress me.][/quote]

That's because your religious orientation brain washes you to believe you haven't been oppressed. That's the con game. Smile

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 02:17 pm
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

[quoteOthers may have had differeecant experiences, but no religion has ever tried to oppress me.]

That's because your religious orientation brain washes you to believe you haven't been oppressed. That's the con game. Smile




Actually, I agree with Oralloy here...with some exceptions that he may or may not agree with.

As a "for instance" I personally have no problem with JW's coming to my door. And if religious people I know try to talk me into returning to the theistic side of the road...I have no problem.

Fact is, there are times when I talk up my personal (agnostic) perspective with a great deal of enthusiasm...and with the intention to sell the idea.

What does bother me about the religious folk, though, is the kind of crap going on in Alabama right now...with the state's chief justice telling the federal judiciary to go to hell...fostered by religious motivations.

I am not happy with the fact that my country apparently "puts its trust" in some god, something I do not do...

...or that I live in a nation "under" some god, another thing I will not do.

I am not nuts about the congress that makes laws for us...opening it sessions with hoping that some god will aid us become a better republic.

But honestly, as with Oralloy, no religion has ever tried to oppress me.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 02:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I still conceive of religion as being a net negative for society, but I am not convinced that eliminating it entirely would make the world a better place. And considering the condition of "unintended consequences"...eliminating it might end up making the world a worse place.


I wanted to ask you about this statement.

I can understand anyone, Theist and or even an Atheist say or believing religion has done some good, though I beg to differ, and that religion could and should stay around.

So upon recognizing or in your case " still conceive religion as being a net negative on society" why should religion stay, there is no way to know if things will be better or worse. We do know how the world is with religion, and nothing is guaranteed, there is always risk with any venture. Who is to say something more positive will not come with out religion?

As far as unintended consequences that happens under any condition, isn't that what evolution is all about. And why worry about things we cannot control? If an asteroid destroys us tomorrow it doesn't matter any way. Who is to say equally with as much conviction that we would not evolve into a better world?.

Is it a fear of the unknown? If so, isn't fear and ignorance the glue that keeps religion in the fore front?
You don't want to get rid of us because the next guy will be worse? How does one prove that?

The fear that change may be worse than what is current has been used to keep slaves and the masses ( the masses oh boy lol) down for centuries by racist and well meaning ignorant people. Or by misguided school councilors. Will it shake up the status quo? Good for it. Have we become like that Pink Floyd song "Comfortably Numb"?

Freedom and Equality and fairness is about exercising their right to have a fair chance to succeed or to fail, but not by telling people don't do , don't go there, that it is safer here and that because the boogie man is out there.

Isn't that exactly what religion does?

Growing up in the late 50' and early 60" I have seen progress. You cannot tell me the sacrifices made then haven't made a change for the better, even in the south, the world did not fall apart. I think this country in many ways is better off because of it.

It may or may not be moving at a snails pace but atheism o and r non- believers are gathering in numbers and more free thinkers, and hopefully more critical thinkers are on the rise and not having to live in the closet in this country, as other civil liberties are and certain prejudges fall, though lowly, by the waste side. That in part to the world wide web. There are more secular groups and countries that have lower crime rates, not all do to the lack of practicing organized religion.

These are some of my reason why I don't fear the lost of religion and though I will not be alive if it ever came to fruition I think it would be glorious: a religious free world. or not, but at least we would have tried.

Also, unlike many in this country I was not raised in any religious setting. I was never indoctrinated. So there was never any need for any type of conversion.

I went out of curiosity to a catholic mass with a friend when I was 8. The priest stressed how bad we were and talked about sin and guilt, I knew then that that priest sounded like an ass to me. It was not an analyses at the time. It was merely a gut feeling, inexplicable,but I just felt something did not sound Kosher. LOl

Man, can I digress, oh yeah where was I...
What am I rambling and ranting about about.

Oh yeah,perhaps I will make it to one of the A2K dinners

I also owe you an answer about the question of no good reason and the question of complete certainty

until then, talk to you later





argome321
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 03:08 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Fact is, there are times when I talk up my personal (agnostic) perspective with a great deal of enthusiasm...and with the intention to sell the idea


Hi how are you doing?
I do not know if you are an atheist or not, By that I mean in the modern definition, not in it's original meaning just for debating purposes.

If you indulge me a bit I'll explain.
If we take atheism as meaning without belief that would answer the question of belief and if we take the word agnosticism meaning not to know then we are talking about two different things. one is belief and the other a subset of belief: knowledge or lack there of.

The question of belief is probably the most ask of the two.
So when ask what one believes and a person answers I'm agnostic that doesn't answer the belief question.

For all intent and purpose I'm an agnostic atheist, given that no one has ever proven the exist of the posited gods. So it makes it hard to believe that they exist, but I don't know if they or a any god exist because no one has ever convincingly proved it.

I could be agnostic about any thing any one claims to exist without proof, I can be an a- unicorn agnostic, a flying spaghetti agnostic etc using this logic.

SO, can I ask you what you believe and not what you don't know unless you don't know what you believe? Lol




Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 03:22 pm
@argome321,
Argome, you wrote:

Quote:
These are some of my reason why I don't fear the lost of religion


I do not “fear” the loss of religion either. And if anything I said lead you to think that I might fear it…allow me to dissuade you of that thought.

What I said (and meant) was:


Quote:
I am not convinced that eliminating it entirely would make the world a better place.


I then added,

Quote:
And considering the condition of "unintended consequences"...eliminating it might end up making the world a worse place.


Not saying it would…just saying it might.

If religion were eliminated from the planet tomorrow...I would cry no tears. But I cannot get behind a movement to eliminate it right now, because of the reasons I mentioned above...

...and the unrest and chaos such a movement could (almost certainly would) cause.

Let the people who need it...and benefit from it...have it.

I just don't want to see it encroach on public life any more than it already has.

0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 03:25 pm
If religions were removed would there no longer be reasons for humans to oppress one another?

What about isms?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 03:32 pm
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

Quote:
Fact is, there are times when I talk up my personal (agnostic) perspective with a great deal of enthusiasm...and with the intention to sell the idea


Hi how are you doing?
I do not know if you are an atheist or not, By that I mean in the modern definition, not in it's original meaning just for debating purposes.


I am not an atheist...a confusing designation that I think applies more by a person choosing it rather than as the result of any definition...classical or neo.

Quote:
If you indulge me a bit I'll explain.
If we take atheism as meaning without belief that would answer the question of belief...


That is such an arbitrary "meaning" that I prefer not to do that.

If I were to use the Merriam-Webster dictionary or the Cambridge dictionary definition of "atheist"...it would read: "someone who denies the existence of God"...or "a person who denies the existence of deities."

Other dictionaries define it otherwise...more in line with what you are suggesting.

But it is arbitrary...and so let's not use it.

If you want to re-word any of the other issues you raised after considering that...do so, and I will respond.



Quote:
SO, can I ask you what you believe and not what you don't know unless you don't know what you believe? Lol


I do not do "believing" at all, Argome.

If you are asking me what I guess about the question of "Is there a GOD or not?"...and insisting that I make a guess...

...I would ask you wait until I flip my coin (whose name is Mr. Coin)...and I give you my guess.






0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 03:41 pm
@argome321,
Human nature being what it is, if no religions were invented there would simply be something else serving the same functions. There would be the same amount of war, altruism, torture, bigotry, love of fellow humans, that there is now.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 03:44 pm
it's not so much the religion as it is the people who follow it

the best thing for the world would be if there were no people, it would be a paradise
0 Replies
 
MrMix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 05:48 am
There already is a place without God?? It's called hell !!
argome321
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 06:00 am
@MrMix,
Quote:
There already is a place without God?? It's called hell !!


How do you know that hell exist, have you been there?
MrMix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 06:57 am
@argome321,
My faith in Christ and the bible (Gods word) leads me to truely believe in both heaven and hell. I have also experienced spiritual incidents (involving demonic entities) which have confirmed that the dark side is very real. Incidents that not even science can figure out. All I can say is there are 2 certainties every human will face. Death and we will meet our creator one day weather we like it or not.. I can only pray you are prepared when that happens...
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 09:18 am
Oh dog we prey
Let the light shine in.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 09:40 am
@MrMix,
MrMix wrote:
My faith in Christ and the bible (Gods word) leads me to truely believe in both heaven and hell.
What makes you have faith in Christ and the Bible? Were you taught to believe this when you were a child? Were you ever exposed to any other religions when you were young?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 10:23 am
@MrMix,
No wonder folks are turned off about God. The idea that finite sin could deserve infinite punishment:
MrMix wrote:
There already is a place without God?? It's called hell !!
If anything beyond death were to be a consequence of sin, surely Adam and Eve would have been warned in the beginning.
argome321
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 10:33 am
@MrMix,
Quote:
[/[b]My faith in Christ and the bible (Gods word) leads me to truely believe in both heaven and hell. I have also experienced spiritual incidents (involving demonic entities) which have confirmed that the dark side is very real. Incidents that not even science can figure out. All I can say is there are 2 certainties every human will face. Death and we will meet our creator one day weather we like it or not.. I can only pray you are prepared when that happens..[/b].quote]

Without a scientific method how can you prove your assertion?
How do you know that you have dealt with demonic entities?
What does spiritual even mean?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 10:40 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

No wonder folks are turned off about God. The idea that finite sin could deserve infinite punishment:
MrMix wrote:
There already is a place without God?? It's called hell !!
If anything beyond death were to be a consequence of sin, surely Adam and Eve would have been warned in the beginning.


Why? They wouldn't have know if either were good or bad. Punishment, in their eyes, was identical to reward.

Remember?

The god denied them the ability to distinguish between them.

That is why I consider it a defective fairy tale.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 11:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
Yeah, Frank. You're always trudging out that feeble fantasy. So let's get down to the important stuff:
Will Suh end up as a Seahawk?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2015 12:19 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Yeah, Frank. You're always trudging out that feeble fantasy. So let's get down to the important stuff:
Will Suh end up as a Seahawk?


I wish he would end up OUT OF FOOTBALL.

The days of thinking his piss poor conduct is just an infrequent thing...an anomaly...are over. He is an insult to the notion that it is a game.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind him being a Seahawk. After what they did to themselves last month...I doubt he would bring any more dishonor with his presence.

As long as he doesn't become a JINT.
0 Replies
 
 

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