48
   

Would the World be Better off Without Religion?

 
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 10:23 am
@argome321,
thanks again
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 10:46 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
I don't know how to stress to you that you don't understand atheism, especially given your statement printed above.

As noted before, I understand Atheism just fine.


argome321 wrote:
a person need not explain himself to something or some one he doesn't believe to exist, there would be no need to.

Yes. Thus Atheism lacks the curb against evil behavior that is provided by mainstream religion.


argome321 wrote:
and so far you haven't proven that your god exist

So?


argome321 wrote:
I'm pretty sure if you thought that I didn't exist you wouldn't be talking to me
you wouldn't have a need to explain anything to me.

I'm pretty sure that you exist.

I'm not sure that I have a "need" to explain, but I'm willing to explain if you have any questions.


argome321 wrote:
And a god who has yet to have been proven to exist does?

Beats me. What God "deserves" is a bit beyond my pay grade.


argome321 wrote:
That sounds a little inane if not insane to me

Yes. Talking about what God "deserves" is a bit silly.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 11:00 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

"I think this qualifies as hatred of religion.

Here we can agree to disagree, I have a different idea of hatred I guess then yours. Perhaps it is a mere matter of degrees.

"A question: If someone could be religious without being "rules by fear and ignorance", would you change your opinion?"

That would depend on several things, Would they tried to force their belief on others, as many feel that it is their right and obligation to do so?

would they respect other beliefs different from their own despite what their holy books dictate?

I really don't have a problem with people being religious, it's religion based on superstition, believing in things that there is no proof ( at this point in time) and no know way to prove it because the problem is people act on their beliefs and that is the danger I see.

Don't you thing that if people are going to commit to their religion and trust and act on the tenets of their beliefs that those tenets should have a firm base, a footing in reality, something a little more tangible, as close to reality as possible? Because your action once leaving the gray areas exist in the real world with real consequences.


Do you believe that human life is "sacred" (meaning that it is so important that it should be protected at any cost)?

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 11:26 am
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

Quote:
lets see what happens



Aces on that one, Argome.


Apparently what you did was to hit the "Reply" button and then added the
[ quote ] and [ /quote ] either by hand...or by highlighting the sentence and then clicking the "Quote" button.

It is also possible to just go to the posting that you want to quote...and hit the "Quote" button...and the entire post will be quoted.

Give it a try. Go back to my last post...and just hit the "quote" button...and compare what gets posted to the one up above.

As you work with it, you will find ways to quote different pieces of the posting separate from other pieces...so that you can separate your comments and be specific.

Have fun with it.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 11:27 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Do you believe that human life is "sacred" (meaning that it is so important that it should be protected at any cost)?


My answer may shock or at least surprise you. I do value life and what ever my sense of morals are they would be the same no matter what era I was born into.
Any abuse on any level is wrong to me. It does not matter to me what era or period of human existence. You can soft peddle it, like the bible, but to me it is still wrong owning another human being. My morality, if you want to label it as morality.

As far as life, I grieve at the lost of life, human and other species, but realistically, I do eat meat, I do kill bacteria, insects and what may bring harm to my life. I can live with the execution of people who with callousness and cold a bloodlessness kill others and who shorten the lives of others. I have resolved that a long time ago because I believe there are those who would continue to take other lives no matter what... for what ever reason(s).

And here is the factor as to why my set of values are innate to me, to my being. I love music and art and the things that make me happy and healthy and bring me comfort and solace, the people that enrich my life, no matter their background. So it would stand to reason that I would have a morality to want to protect them, I would have a rooting interest in their well being. Isn't that what love of self is? Yes love of self. Why would I want to destroy those who enrich my life? Why would I not want to help them succeed? is not also for my benefit? I have empathy and reason and logic to drive what people choose to call morality. And because I hate to see suffering.
My existential understanding that suffering is just another part of life.
So when these people are no longer around I feel a personal loss. If a person with potential is lostIi feel a loss because that person might have enriched my life.

this my reasoning for my morality, and then some.



maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 11:44 am
@argome321,
Quote:
I do value life and what ever my sense of morals are they would be the same no matter what era I was born into.


I don't believe that. A thousand years ago, there was no one with anything even close to your sense of morals anywhere on Earth. Now, there are millions of people with a sense of morality that is very close to yours.

Do you think that is a coincidence?

Of course it is a little difficult to prove your claim definitively either way since you are living in a Western culture in the 21st century. The fact is that your morals match very well with the culture you happen to be living in. You can either choose to believe that your understanding of morality is a product of society, or you can believe that your society is a product of your understanding of morality. I find the latter to be a little presumptuous.


0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 11:51 am
I’ve been of the opinion that religion has a net negative impact on humanity…but strangely enough, my gut-feeling answer to the thread question is: I don’t necessarily think so.

The world might be a better place without religion if only we humans were a bit further along in our philosophical evolution. But we are not.

Right now we are technologically evolved to the point where we COULD annihilate ourselves (annihilate almost all living creatures on the planet)…but we still haven’t evolved philosophically where such an event is unimaginable.

Hey…a huge asteroid could strike Earth and wipe out almost all the life…and the universe would have to live with it.

But I think religion, net negative impact that I see it being, does have a reasonable function for humanity…given that we are so relatively primitive. I think it does help keep us from being savages.

So…I am going to cast my vote for “NO”…even though I have reservations about that vote.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 11:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
I believe that it is impossible for humanity to exist without religion. We evolved to have faith, it is as much a part of us as language or social bonding.

Even those of us who claim not to be religious have beliefs that are not supported at all by logic or reason. The common belief that human life has value is a perfect example.

A belief in human rights is no different than a belief in God. It is something you take on faith with nothing in terms of facts or reason to back it up.



Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 12:29 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I believe that it is impossible for humanity to exist without religion. We evolved to have faith, it is as much a part of us as language or social bonding.

Even those of us who claim not to be religious have beliefs that are not supported at all by logic or reason. The common belief that human life has value is a perfect example.

A belief in human rights is no different than a belief in God. It is something you take on faith with nothing in terms of facts or reason to back it up.


Okay, Max. But I am not sure of your point.

I do not have a "belief" in "human rights."
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 12:31 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I’ve been of the opinion that religion has a net negative impact on humanity…but strangely enough, my gut-feeling answer to the thread question is: I don’t necessarily think so.

The world might be a better place without religion if only we humans were a bit further along in our philosophical evolution. But we are not.

Right now we are technologically evolved to the point where we COULD annihilate ourselves (annihilate almost all living creatures on the planet)…but we still haven’t evolved philosophically where such an event is unimaginable.

Hey…a huge asteroid could strike Earth and wipe out almost all the life…and the universe would have to live with it.

But I think religion, net negative impact that I see it being, does have a reasonable function for humanity…given that we are so relatively primitive. I think it does help keep us from being savages.

So…I am going to cast my vote for “NO”…even though I have reservations about that vote.



I can not disagree with the idea that we have not evolved philosophically to match our technology, but I wonder if that is a direct cause of religion and the religious effort to oppress us through the early years by using our fear and ignorance against us in it's indoctrination of us? Is it because we have been under the spell of religion for so long that we are afraid to even try ? Perhaps it is something like that movie "The Truman Show" starring Jim Carey.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 12:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
But I think religion, net negative impact that I see it being, does have a reasonable function for humanity…given that we are so relatively primitive. I think it does help keep us from being savages.

I think that "help in keeping us from being savages" is more pervasive than is often apparent.

If we took away the fear of having to explain themselves to God after they die, I think that many humans would start behaving substantially worse than they presently do.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 12:40 pm
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:
but I wonder if that is a direct cause of religion and the religious effort to oppress us through the early years by using our fear and ignorance against us in it's indoctrination of us?

Others may have had different experiences, but no religion has ever tried to oppress me.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 12:43 pm
@argome321,
Quote:
I can not disagree with the idea that we have not evolved philosophically to match our technology, but I wonder if that is a direct cause of religion and the religious effort to oppress us through the early years by using our fear and ignorance against us in it's indoctrination of us?


I do not convinced that religion has such a genesis, Argome.

I do not think it originated to oppress us (whomever you suppose "us" to be).

I think originally "religion" was an almost inevitable consequence of the increased intelligence our species experienced.

As we got "smarter" we realized that we were at the mercy of many things over which we had almost no control. It doesn't seem a stretch to me to suppose that considerations about that condition lead to the supposition that MAYBE other things (like gods) could control conditions in our favor...if only we somehow gained its favor.

It may be even more simple...analogous to having a garish tie on and winning a huge daily double at the track. So...you start wearing the garish tie each time you go to the track...hoping somehow it will impact on your luck.

Maybe early people experimented...and found that cutting off the head of a virgin might always mean a big harvest...if somehow a virgin managed to get her head cut off just before a big harvest.

To suppose that religion was originally conceived for the purpose of controlling the population...seem a mighty stretch to me...DESPITE the fact that later people seemed to have realized it did work very well in that capacity.






0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 12:47 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
But I think religion, net negative impact that I see it being, does have a reasonable function for humanity…given that we are so relatively primitive. I think it does help keep us from being savages.

I think that "help in keeping us from being savages" is more pervasive than is often apparent.

If we took away the fear of having to explain themselves to God after they die, I think that many humans would start behaving substantially worse than they presently do.


Some people are able to be reasonable and (what we think of as) moral...without a god...and without the threats gods pose.

But you are correct that there are lots who apparently need that restraint...and without it, they might be very savage.

I still conceive of religion as being a net negative for society, but I am not convinced that eliminating it entirely would make the world a better place. And considering the condition of "unintended consequences"...eliminating it might end up making the world a worse place.
argome321
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 12:59 pm
@maxdancona,
[quotet upon other emerging ideas][/quthis onote]

What are you basing this on? I hope not entirely on the past.
If life is constantly evolving my why not a religious free world?
My limited understanding of Christianity says god gave man free will. so why can't he choose to make it better? And if he choose make it better here on earth and achieve that, why would he need good?

If the world is deterministic , than I would guess there is no free will and a christian god...how does that work? No free will... no christian god?

Yes, we have evolved, we have evolved to have many things and many of these things are in contradiction to one another, and they come and go and become vestiges and are no longer functioning. We evolve with faith, but we also evolve with the ability to reason and a hunger to learn and explore and to hope. We to will probably go, become extinct, but until then we can still push the limits, until we reach those limits of human endeavors. We know what a world with religion is, how about trying to find out about one with out religion?
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 01:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But you are correct that there are lots who apparently need that restraint...and without it, they might be very savage.


I know that no matter what beliefs one has, religious and non-religious people have committed heinous acts. But I a more critical of the religious person who takes the high moral position. Apparently these so called religious restraints have done little to restrain the very same people in their religious wars. Were the Crusades fought by savages? Was the Fighting in Northern Ireland fought by savages? Joan of arc, is she a saint? My real question is, are those who fought under the name of religious edicts and in the name of their god any less savage?
Why is there so much violence in all those holy books?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 01:29 pm
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:


Why is there so much violence in all those holy books?


This is a guess and just a guess, but...

...I think the ancient Hebrews needed a "god" to protect themselves from the gods of their many enemies.

The gods of their enemies were angry, demanding, murderous, barbaric, tyrannical, jealous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengeful, revenge driven, laughably petty gods...

...so the ancient Hebrews, no fools they, invented an angry, demanding, murderous, barbaric, tyrannical, jealous, quick-to-anger, slow to forgive, vengeful, revenge driven, laughably petty god of their own.

Violence was demanded.

They got it...in spades.

That would be my guess, Argome.

And you? What is your guess?
korkamann
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 02:27 pm
@argome321,
Quote:
Why is there so much violence in all those Holy Books?


For the simple reason, gods did not create mankind, on the contrary, mankind created gods. These "holy books" reflect the emotional characteristics of man....his deep abiding anger, and his need for vengeance.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 02:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And you? What is your guess?


LOL, I don't know if thee is enough hours in a day to give you my theories, but I'll try to give you some, and probably they will need further elucidating.

I find your own guess quite plausible

So, here goes noting, of course my theories come from my little understanding and/or misunderstanding of human nature.

So there is man in his infancy, face with the knowledge and confusion of his own death, face with being powerless again the elements and nature and it's hostile environment, clueless, perhaps scared and alienated. Our minds and our consciousness is our blessing and bane. existential angst creeps in.

Powerless, powerless and nothing we can do about save invent those gods that will save us and give us reason and purpose and perceived power . Invent them, and endow them with human characteristics for what else can we we do? Why not? our imagination may be faulty but it does allow us to dream.
who is to oppose us, science if at all exist is barely minimum? Personification of evey thing we dream and hope and desire, Man being man man,being god, the god(s) the he created.

But here's the rub, when we endow this god with our characteristics they involve what is best to what is worse in man,his fears and and his loves but how he responds to them is the key.

Do you understand sadomsochism? Domestic violence? one thinking they have the power while the other misguided takes abuse and worshiping the sadistic person and call it love. Sounds like the relationship of a religious person with their god. especially a personal god.

You want to keep people in line invent the boogie man.
promise them something that you know they want and if you "preach a better sermon they'll beat a path to your door."

You want what your neighbors has, you want his property? say your god gave you this land, this justify your actions.
You want slaves,be a master and save money, just don't beat him within three days to death.
you want 76 virgins just kill the infidels who insult Allah. Believing in your god justifies your actions and give you power otherwise you wouldn't have. Though, in truth you aren't really any more powerful than the day you were born.
No,if not why is the first commandant in the christian book"Do not worship other gods, not about life or property.
I think murder is no.6
save god sure did a lot of killing himself and always threatens to kill.
Isn't that what abusive fathers do, tell their kids they made them and they can break them? And call it love.
and you worshiper want to touch and be near this power, you may even secretly want it but you do his bidding and take his punish that you think that you earn, proving your love and thus allowed in his or her graces.

I better stop here.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 03:43 pm
@argome321,
argome321 wrote:

I think religion is one of the most insideous evils ever created. It does nothing more then hinders the growth and true happiness of man kind. It preys on primal fears. It does nothing more than create division among mankind and tells him that faith is greater than reason which is the biggest crime any organization can commit. what ever good it claims it does that very good can be achieved with out religion. Do nothing else but pray and see how long one last.

Is faith is the opposite of reason then why should man abandon reason? Reason and curiosty is man's very nature. To abandon reason, logic and skepticism is paramount to suicide. Why does religion want us to commit suicide? All that allows us to live a healthier and longer happier life comes from technology via science via logic and reason and our empirical skill, not faith.
Religion want us to ream children and never grow up and take responsiblity for our actions. It is time we grow up as a people and take off the religions shackles that hinder our growth.

Do we need to fear the loss of religion? I think not.
Relogion is a bad and immoral placebo


URL: http://able2know.org/post/ask/


I take both sides of this idea. I am sure someone at some point said a simple saying to sum up my position but I can't think of anything at this time so I will just attempt it now.

Religion is good to keep the less intelligent in line where as if they were free from the fear of their god they may make the lives of the more intelligent less safe.

If an idiot has no or very little empathy for human life then no amount of human laws will get them to behave and respect others. However; if this same idiot fears the wrath of some god and that pushes them to behave, then so be it.

I think as time endures the human race will become more empathetic towards itself and it's environment the need for religion will slowly dwindle until one day people realize it was all just silly fables we told the idiots to get them to behave.

Although I will admit that sometimes religion itself is the catalyst that causes one group to attack and demonize another group. But behaving this way will only reveal later that the religion itself is the problem but it just takes time to realize this.

As soon as religions relax on their apostates due to social backlash people will quickly become more comfortable and the fear of religious persecution will be the thing that the ignorant take part in.

The rate of atheists will grow exponentially as people realize there is nothing to fear from not believing or following the superstitions that make up religions.
0 Replies
 
 

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