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Would the World be Better off Without Religion?

Forums: Religion, Spirituality And Religion, Philosophy, Lack Of Religion, Lack Of Belief
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Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 08:27 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
Sounds more like. In the past males were subject to infections and some died as a result of these infections so they assume it was god's wrath and by removing it, they were less likely to get infections and not die.

Many of the jewish laws if you examine them with medical knowledge you can see the correlation between them. Except they didn't have knowledge of bacteria, virus and the body's immune system. They just assumed god was angry and decided certain things were to be avoided least you be killed for not obeying.

The medical explanation for kashrut and other Jewish laws is short-selling Leviticus, IMO. According to Maimonides, circumcision is quite simply meant to reduce the sexual drive in boys. Many other laws seem to be about regulating instincts. E.g. when an ancient levite felt "yuuuck" when seeing a lobster, he wrote "eating lobsters is an abomination."
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 09:00 am
@Olivier5,
Maimonides was about 4,000 years later then the decision . I doubt he knew why it was done apart from the contract . Most dietary laws came from seeing that creature eat carrion . It was believed to be dirty from what it ate .
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 09:06 am
@Olivier5,
It's one thing to say, don't eat that, it's an abomination.

It's another thing to kill the person for doing so.

Many of the laws suggest a person who breaks them should be dealt with via stoning until dead.

It's like the guy who was put to death for picking up firewood on the sabbath.

They come up with a rational based on something that is completely irrational. Just because it states in your ancient story that a god rested on a particular day why would it suggest that everyone else must also do so or they should be murdered?

A really caring god, would be like, woah! hold on a second. Yeah I rested but I don't expect you to, by all means if you need firewood on saturday, go out and get firewood. I don't want you to freeze or starve just to appeal to me.

Ye this is not what people do. They say their god commands that you be put to death. It's absurd.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 09:23 am
@Krumple,
You are talking about the law 5,000 years ago in a tribal survival environment . How many religious people follow those laws now ?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 09:28 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

You are talking about the law 5,000 years ago in a tribal survival environment . How many religious people follow those laws now ?


Oh a nice handful of muslims? It wasn't all that long ago that christians use to. Salem witch trials ring a bell? Secular debate is what has been saving us from the barbaric views advocated in the bible.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 09:35 am
@Krumple,
I dont know why atheists are so convinced they are such nice people...maybe they heard it from an atheist...are you saying the origins of those laws are later than I said ? It was religious people who changed those laws....the Puritans were being persecuted for those primitive beliefs in England which is why they were in Salem, and Muslims are indeed stuck in the Middle Ages and are paying for it with blood and tears . Catholics have moved Christianity away from the OT for those exact reasons .
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:38 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

I dont know why atheists are so convinced they are such nice people...maybe they heard it from an atheist...are you saying the origins of those laws are later than I said ? It was religious people who changed those laws....the Puritans were being persecuted for those primitive beliefs in England which is why they were in Salem, and Muslims are indeed stuck in the Middle Ages and are paying for it with blood and tears . Catholics have moved Christianity away from the OT for those exact reasons .


I am not trying to claim that atheists ARE nice people. I understand that people will try to justify the horrible things they do to others any way they can. But when a "holy" book suggests that you do these horrible things, it just adds fuel to the fire that is already blazing. We don't need another reason to justify hurting others, we are already violent enough as it is without it.

The only difference is, when an Atheist does something horrible, they only have themselves to live with. They don't have a dogma that lets them ignore their responsibility towards others. Atheism isn't an ideology. It is just a response to a single question. This is why you get all different types of atheists. Some bad, some good, not all the same. But they don't have some dogma that influences them to behave badly and call it good.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:43 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
Atheism isn't an ideology. It is just a response to a single question.


In many, many, many cases...atheism is an ideology...a very specific ideology. My opinion is that for YOU in particular...it is an ideology.

As for it being the answer to a single question...allow me to ask the question, and you can tell me what its (atheism's) answer is to it:

What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 10:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?[/b]


The true nature of reality is that there will be obnoxious people like you who refuse to understand simple logic.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:06 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?[/b]


The true nature of reality is that there will be obnoxious people like you who refuse to understand simple logic.


I am not trying to be obnoxious, Krumple...I am trying to be logical.

And I am succeeding at both those endeavors.

You seem to be bothered by that.

There is no way logic and reason can lead anyone to "there are no gods."

Logic and reason can only lead to, "we do not know if there are any gods."

I'd love to discuss this with you...and I can do it in a reasonable and courteous way.

Can you?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:11 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Krumple wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?[/b]


The true nature of reality is that there will be obnoxious people like you who refuse to understand simple logic.


I am not trying to be obnoxious, Krumple...I am trying to be logical.

And I am succeeding at both those endeavors.

You seem to be bothered by that.

There is no way logic and reason can lead anyone to "there are no gods."

Logic and reason can only lead to, "we do not know if there are any gods."

I'd love to discuss this with you...and I can do it in a reasonable and courteous way.

Can you?


The fundamental point I was making is that you don't honestly believe that because NOTHING you do reflects that other than this one case. The fact that you can function in reality proves that you hold to this idea that things can be known without needing any evidence or the lack of evidence is good enough to function.

Why are you not concerned about being abducted by aliens at any moment? You don't know that they could be there. So how is it you rationalize this attitude? Because you base it off previous experience and come to the conclusion that there is no evidence to support it and therefore can function in reality without an irrational fear that at any moment you might be abducted by aliens. Everything you do in life you use this rational on except when it comes to the existence of a god. This one special case you attempt to claim you can't know. That itself is illogical.

In other words if you honestly believed that you can't know if aliens are about to abduct you. Then you should be residing in a constant state of anxiety about everything.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:18 am
@Krumple,
If you honestly felt this way in all aspects of life. Then it would be perfectly rational to hold the idea that you have a bogyman living in your closet. Since you can't know as you put it then you should be constantly faced with this possibility. Yet your brain is telling you differently. Your brain is immediately telling you there is no evidence to suggest that there is a bogyman living in my closet so it is irrational to think that there is.

You do this with everything in your life, except when it comes to the existence of a god. You make a special exception and I can only guess as to why you do this. I feel you think it makes you think you are in some way being superior. You think you have a one up on everyone else who is so convinced that there isn't a god.

You are not being consistent though. If you hold this idea that things can not be known then all things no matter how absurd they are, are in fact plausible. That is illogical. The only other way to reason this out is to suggest that you must be on a lot of anti-anxiety medications.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:22 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
The fundamental point I was making is that you don't honestly believe that because NOTHING you do reflects that other than this one case. The fact that you can function in reality proves that you hold to this idea that things can be known without needing any evidence or the lack of evidence is good enough to function.

Why are you not concerned about being abducted by aliens at any moment? You don't know that they could be there. So how is it you rationalize this attitude? Because you base it off previous experience and come to the conclusion that there is no evidence to support it and therefore can function in reality without an irrational fear that at any moment you might be abducted by aliens. Everything you do in life you use this rational on except when it comes to the existence of a god. This one special case you attempt to claim you can't know. That itself is illogical.

In other words if you honestly believed that you can't know if aliens are about to abduct you. Then you should be residing in a constant state of anxiety about everything.


Krumple...the illogical one in this discussion thus far...has been YOU.

This nonsense you are peddling about aliens...or how I would lead my life IF...is nonsense.

I am not in a constant anxiety about ANYTHING. I am Mr. Calm. I am not worried about aliens...or gods.

But rather than trying to wade through all this stuff...please pick out the SINGLE most important point you are trying to make in your attempts to show that you KNOW there are no gods...and we can discuss it.

If you really want to also discuss my life and what you refer to as my "beliefs"...we can do it somewhere else. (You can start a thread on it...and I commit to being a regular poster to it. It has no place here...and discussing it has no place in determining why YOU insist you know there are no gods.)
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:25 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
The fundamental point I was making is that you don't honestly believe that because NOTHING you do reflects that other than this one case. The fact that you can function in reality proves that you hold to this idea that things can be known without needing any evidence or the lack of evidence is good enough to function.

Why are you not concerned about being abducted by aliens at any moment? You don't know that they could be there. So how is it you rationalize this attitude? Because you base it off previous experience and come to the conclusion that there is no evidence to support it and therefore can function in reality without an irrational fear that at any moment you might be abducted by aliens. Everything you do in life you use this rational on except when it comes to the existence of a god. This one special case you attempt to claim you can't know. That itself is illogical.

In other words if you honestly believed that you can't know if aliens are about to abduct you. Then you should be residing in a constant state of anxiety about everything.


Krumple...the illogical one in this discussion thus far...has been YOU.

This nonsense you are peddling about aliens...or how I would lead my life IF...is nonsense.

I am not in a constant anxiety about ANYTHING. I am Mr. Calm. I am not worried about aliens...or gods.

But rather than trying to wade through all this stuff...please pick out the SINGLE most important point you are trying to make in your attempts to show that you KNOW there are no gods...and we can discuss it.

If you really want to also discuss my life and what you refer to as my "beliefs"...we can do it somewhere else. (You can start a thread on it...and I commit to being a regular poster to it. It has no place here...and discussing it has no place in determining why YOU insist you know there are no gods.)


Buzz buzz buzz. You understand the reasoning but refuse to acknowledge that you behave this way in all other aspects of your life. Make sure you don't get run over by invisible cars today.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:34 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Therefore it does not cause people to worry about having to explain their behavior to God when they die.


This argument never makes any sense. Why would you need to explain to a god about your behavior if this god was all knowing? Wouldn't it already know? Also if I was in this situation, this god would know that I was only being honest with myself that I was not convinced that there was a god. My behavior is my own. To fault me on that is asinine. This god would have to understand this fact.

You can't expect me to follow something that I find lacks credibility. If this god was so great it would understand this about me. Therefore it has not done it's job in convincing me that I should behave in another way. You might claim that it has but I am still not convinced. You can attempt to claim that I am just ignoring it. But tell me just how I am behaving that is so bad?

I don't do drugs.
I don't steal.
I don't kill people.
I try not to lie.

You tell me what behavior I am trying to justify that is contrary to god's commands? I bet the only thing you can come up with is that I don't believe the god exists and that is worthy of damnation.

If that is the case then I welcome damnation because I would rather be tortured for eternity than to exist in the same place with a god who would punish someone simply because they don't believe in them.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:39 am
@Krumple,
Krumple...since you are insisting...what is it you are saying?

Here is a statement of my agnosticism:


Quote:
I do not know if there is a GOD or if there are gods;
I do not know if there are no gods;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that they are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.


What specifically do you see as inconsistent about that?

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:43 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Therefore it does not cause people to worry about having to explain their behavior to God when they die.
Actually, when you're dead, you're dead. No roasting toasting, boiling or broiling.
So, no 'splaining, neither. - Ecclesiastes 9:6
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:44 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Therefore it does not cause people to worry about having to explain their behavior to God when they die.
Actually, when you're dead, you're dead. No roasting toasting, boiling or broiling.
So, no 'splaining, neither. - Ecclesiastes 9:6


And of course you know that everything in Ecclasiastes is absolutely correct and true...because...????
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not know if there is a GOD or if there are gods;
I do not know if there are no gods;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that they are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.


What specifically do you see as inconsistent about that?[/quote]

It is inconsistent because you don't use this line of reasoning on anything else in reality. You don't behave with this attitude on everything else that "could" exist.

Replace the word "god" in your statements with completely random stuff and it no longer makes any sense.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2015 11:48 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
Krumple wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not know if there is a GOD or if there are gods;
I do not know if there are no gods;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that they are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.

What specifically do you see as inconsistent about that?


It is inconsistent because you don't use this line of reasoning on anything else in reality.


Even if that were true (which it most assuredly is not) how would that possibly make what I am saying inconsistent.

Deal just with what I am saying about this specific.



Quote:
You don't behave with this attitude on everything else that "could" exist.


Really? How do you KNOW that? The same way you KNOW there are no gods?

Quote:


Replace the word "god" in your statements with completely random stuff and it no longer makes any sense.


Deal with the statement as it is...rather than suggest that if I change it...it will make no sense.
 

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