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Forgiveness ~ A Discussion

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 05:08 pm
@edgarblythe,
I also believe our emotions lessen as time goes by, - no matter what its cause.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 06:01 pm
I've a couple of friends I broke with in my early twenties, each over a relatively small slight that was in effect a breaking of the camel's back. No horrible spats involved.

I still have serious friends from back then, so I didn't friend-erase them all. I only understood at the time that I was sick of those two (different years) saying what we had to do - not moral questions, lesser stuff, but taking charge. I see now that I was just awakening to stand up for myself and didn't want to always go along. Further, I see them as manipulators, a word I didn't quite get then.

From this long range, I understand all of us - the manipulators got it from how people treated them in their family, or similar. I was socially dumb.

One of them called me something like forty years later; she had traced me through someone in our high school class. That person told her I didn't send Christmas cards anymore. I'd actually sort of kept up with that one, though by email once every few years. It was like returning to a lost world of social dues.
We talked at length - I wasn't pissed anymore. Just talking to my old life. She was so blessed about this and that. And so curious.

How to explain forty years, on the phone? After her summaries, I gave some some of mine, of that and that, and we started to reminisce. I said that I remembered being aggravated with her last I saw her, not remembering why (well, I do, but it was too stupid, and really not why). She didn't remember me ever being angry with her (and we had been roommates for a short time in our early 20's, until she got asthma from the location).

With those two old friends, I forgive us for being us. Sounds picayune but I really didn't want to see them again, and still don't. I wasn't the only one who had trouble with these women, others were more vocal. I was slow to get fed up.

Much as we talked in all those long ago years, I hadn't learned to be straightforward yet. Resentment built.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 09:54 pm
@ossobuco,
Good on ya, Osso. Better late than never, heh?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 10:10 pm
I don't know - some people can become vicious for whatever reason and they can do you wrong, they can harm you and I see no point in forgiving these people. On the contrary and strangely enough it's not eating me up, it's validating my own integrity and my desire to never, ever become like these people.
They're not important enough to be in emotional turmoil over it, but I would never forgive or forget. I can live with that, I really can, happily I might add.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 1 Feb, 2015 10:19 pm
@Joe Nation,
I dont assume that people want to harm me. I want to go around believing that most people are good so I do.

People pretty much get only one shot to hurt me, after that I cut them out. Family is different.

I dont believe that I am healed from the event till I forgive. This is a very controversial idea.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 03:42 am
@hawkeye10,
Further proving you're an idiot.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 11:17 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Further proving you're an idiot.

we all know that according to you anyone who does not agree with you is an idiot, so of course. But over 25 years of experience after adopting this approach has me pleased, it works for me.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 11:34 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I dont believe that I am healed from the event till I forgive. This is a very controversial idea.


How is this controversial? it is the basis of JoeNation's position that started this thread. It is also what dlowan identified as being a goal within the world of treating professionals. Your view is the norm in most religion-based societies. Healing requires forgiveness.

CJ's position is the non-standard one.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 11:51 am
@ehBeth,
It is an essential premise in most so-called 12-step programs, e.g. Alcoholics Anonymous.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 12:00 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
How is this controversial? it is the basis of JoeNation's position that started this thread.

I have found that Americans will often dispute this assertion with vigour. I have also found that very few people who have suffered over years from the trauma of childhood sexual abuse are willing to even consider the idea, they seem to have a need to hang on to their hate, and are not willing to even consider letting it go. My argument is that this is part of why they continue to suffer from abuse that took place years or decades earlier.

I note your mention of religion, as those who I have seen successfully moved on from profound trauma very often have in the process taken a spiritual path, have invested time into spiritual exploration as undergone some measure of spiritual renewal.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 12:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
While you know people who disagree with you, forgiveness to facilitate healing is the normative belief.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 03:13 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

While you know people who disagree with you, forgiveness to facilitate healing is the normative belief.

Perhaps, and I used to believe this, but now I dont know where the majority is on this matter. Too many times when I have said that forgiveness need not have anything to do with the worth of offender, that this is about us letting go of the hold that the abuse had on us I get looked at like I have two heads.

Janes explanation is different, instead of " you dont deserve it" or "I hate you too much to forgive you" she says " I dont care enough about you to forgive you". I dont hear that very much. I think she suffers from not understanding the definition of "forgive"

Quote:
o stop feeling anger toward (someone who has done something wrong)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forgive

She seems to be saying that she has washed her hands of this person, and that the trangression no longer has any hold on her, so she has forgiven irregardless of her not putting the right label on the situation.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 07:26 pm
The forgiveness I am struggling with now is how to forgive the murderer of a co-worker. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/video?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=11068209

Yes, that's me at about 1:30 into the piece.

Joe(and it was a real tragedy)Nation
Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 07:34 pm
@Joe Nation,
If you are at all theistic, Joe, I would advise you to pray for him. Failing that, I'd say that just thinking about what might cause one to commit such a crime might help.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 07:52 pm
@Joe Nation,
I couldn't see it (antique imac, no flash) but I had glanced at that news, I think Saturday, maybe Sunday, and just went and read the Hamill piece in the Daily News. So difficult.. especially for Moctar, their son, and his son's mother, and more friends and family. But also those who knew both of them.

I've no advice on forgiving the shooter. I imagine he was a troubled person, as they say, and people do pop.
You have my sympathy in dealing with it.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 08:25 pm
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
The forgiveness I am struggling with now is how to forgive the murderer of a co-worker.


Once you are satisfied that the collective will administer justice there is not much productive for you to do other than to morn and then remember the one who was killed. As for how to do it let me ask you how do you get out of bed in the morning? Answer: you make yourself do it. Also, I doubt very much that your coworker would want your life to be degraded by his/her death. You forgive and move on with your life to honor the likely wishes of the departed, and for yourself. Most of the time you cant prevent tragedy from striking, but you often can largely prevent that tragedy from traumatizing you. You cant help yourself or anyone else if you are a wreck, and you not being a wreck does not mean that you dont care about this evil, it means that you did not let this evil beat you.

Summation: through the force of will you do not go down a road which will not be good for you, or anyone else.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2015 09:53 pm
@Joe Nation,
What an absolute tragedy, especially when it happens around you. Devastating and numbing. Do you know the motive why he killed his supervisor?

That's a different kind of forgiveness that I was alluding to earlier. He killed a co-worker, but could you forgive if he had harmed you?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2015 06:48 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

The forgiveness I am struggling with now is how to forgive the murderer of a co-worker. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/video?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=11068209

Yes, that's me at about 1:30 into the piece.

Joe(and it was a real tragedy)Nation


Take your time.
0 Replies
 
alex240101
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2015 07:14 am
@Joe Nation,
For me, genetically forgetfulness forgives to a degree. The older I get, the less I care. This makes life, time, better.
Looks around, where is everybody.
0 Replies
 
margo
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2015 12:39 pm
Maybe forgiveness will come eventually.

Just be aware that the shooter had overwhelming anguish that he couldn't find any other way to exorcise.
 

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