Speed of light revisited yet still again

@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
I don't do vicious attacks, just point out how clueless you are about stuff you are supposed to know professionally
Then Tim please explain what's wrong with my description of Marty's trip

For one thing, the claim that his/her clock reads the same at arrival as on departure. You have claimed that relativity predicts this, but fled requests to cite your source.

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@Brandon9000,

What clock? the one on the page of your book, that you are interpreting as real?

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@DNA Thumbs drive,

DNA Thumbs drive wrote:

Please explain how space is expanding, and how this is known......

You will fail, as you are babbling.

I claim that this is the consensus of the scientific community. Have you conveniently forgotten the references I have presented to you?

"As bizarre as it may seem, space itself is expanding - specifically, the vast regions of space between galaxies."

Source: http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm

"The metric expansion of space is the increase of the distance between two distant parts of the universe with time. It is an intrinsic expansion whereby the scale of space itself changes."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

"The only thing expanding is space itself."

Source: http://www.universetoday.com/107142/is-everything-in-the-universe-expanding/

"Thus, the universe is not expanding "outwards" into pre-existing space; space itself is expanding, defined by the relative separation of parts of the universe. "

Source: http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_expanding.html

You claim absolutely that it is not expanding, but have ignored every request to provide a reference. Your debating opponents have to provide references over and over, but you can just claim anything?

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

You have presented no evidence, that space beyond cosmic expansion, is being created, nor have you shown the mechanism for this to happen.

Again, if two cars speed away from each other on a highway, the distance between them increases, they both enter new space as they go, but nothing is created. If the cars are galaxies, the same principle is in motion.

1 Reply

@DNA Thumbs drive,

DNA Thumbs drive wrote:

You have presented no evidence, that space beyond cosmic expansion, is being created, nor have you shown the mechanism for this to happen.

Again, if two cars speed away from each other on a highway, the distance between them increases, they both enter new space as they go, but nothing is created. If the cars are galaxies, the same principle is in motion.

You declared that space is not expanding. I have shown that the scientific community thinks it is.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

True you have made this claim, you have also not provided any information to support these ideas, as I predicted with 100 percent accuracy that you would not be able to present.

http://auburnpub.com/news/opinion/mailbag/internet-helps-spread-false-information/article_37d15d12-0a7d-5102-a66d-709f50f36605.html

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Quote:

For one thing, the claim that his/her clock reads the same at arrival as on departure

A simplification for the sake of brevity. Somewhere above I did acknowledge that she arrives ever-so-slightly later but her watch simply isn't of sufficient accuracy or acuity to register this tiny interval

I had supposed this patently obvious but a2k'ers oft possessed by critical detail….

1 Reply

@DNA Thumbs drive,

DNA Thumbs drive wrote:

"...you have also not provided any information to support these ideas..."

Interesting that providing four links to reputable sources counts as no information to you. One of them was to the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. This is more than enough to establish that I have correctly presented the consensus of the scientific community.

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@Brandon9000,

And how does Harvard know, that space beyond the furthest galaxy is being created? Did they send a professor there, magic mushrooms on campus might achieve this.

Next.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Come on boy, babble about Harvard some more...............................

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@DNA Thumbs drive,

DNA Thumbs drive wrote:

And how does Harvard know, that space beyond the furthest galaxy is being created? Did they send a professor there, magic mushrooms on campus might achieve this.

Next.

As someone told me a few minutes ago, you really are a troll. You demand videotape evidence of any assertion you don't want to believe, and even when the most exalted level of evidence is presented to you, you simply ignore it. You reserve the right to make any claim you want, and pretend not to see requests that you support what you've said. You respond to reasoning you can't defeat with ad hominems. You are a dishonest person. Interaction with you is a waste of time. You now become the second person in the ten years I've been on this board to be put on ignore.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Quote:

And how does Harvard know, that space beyond the furthest galaxy is being created? Did they send a professor there, magic mushrooms on campus might achieve this.

So you can not answer, and Harvard actually has no idea. This is exactly as I predicted. You are the troll, who constantly presents bogus information, and claims that it is real.

Next

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@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
For one thing, the claim that his/her clock reads the same at arrival as on departure
A simplification for the sake of brevity. Somewhere above I did acknowledge that she arrives ever-so-slightly later but her watch simply isn't of sufficient accuracy or acuity to register this tiny interval

I had supposed this patently obvious but a2k'ers oft possessed by critical detail….

How much time exactly will her clock have registered for the trip given the events you described? Please do the calculation. It's very simple, uses only algebra, and is taught in every elementary exposition of special relativity.

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@Brandon9000,

This question, is just like, how far does one need to sail, before they fall off the Earth. You are treating this like these measurements can be made, and by using high school algebra no less, and that faster than light speed travel is common.

Sheesh...

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@Brandon9000,

Quote:

How much time exactly will her clock have registered for the trip given the events you described?

Depends upon point of takeoff, acceleration capability. In a typical instance she might be said to have reached (very nearly) c as she leaves her planet's atmosphere so for all practical purposes traveling at (nearly) c the entire trip, arriving here the difference in position of its minute hand too small to detect

I get the distinct feeling Bran that you're pulling my leg

If not could someone else--maybe Con--please explain why Bran requires such minute detail or where I've gone wrong describing Marty's quick trip

2 Replies

@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
How much time exactly will her clock have registered for the trip given the events you described?
Depends upon point of takeoff, acceleration capability. In a typical instance she might be said to have reached (very nearly) c as she leaves her planet's atmosphere so for all practical purposes traveling at (nearly) c the entire trip, arriving here the difference in position of its minute hand too small to detect

I get the distinct feeling Bran that you're pulling my leg

If not could someone else--maybe Con--please explain why Bran requires such minute detail or where I've gone wrong describing Marty's quick trip

I'm not pulling your leg. I'm asking you a reasonable and relevant question. You say that Marty experiences almost no time during her trip. I'm asking you to put numbers to it given your scenario. Give me an example of her speed, distance travelled, etc. and tell me how much time elapses for her. Like I said, the most cursory treatment of special relativity uses this formula. How is asking you a common question directly related to your numerous posts here asking for minute detail?

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

He thinks it's real, this is precious..........

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@Brandon9000,

Quote:

How is asking you a common question directly related to your numerous posts here asking for minute detail?

Somehow Bran you're unfamiliar with the usu ways Einstein is bantered about. Of course it's impossible, but Marty takes off from Phobos, achieving (nearly) c and passing her home planet in let's say one second

(You can figure out the acceleration this requires, math bores me to death)

From a typical point in orbit she arrives here ten minutes later, by our watch. Her velocity was close enough to c that she can't read the travel time on her own

Typically an hour hand advances once per second so travel time would depend on the size of her watch and the acuity of her perception. If we presume it has a second hand then the answer is one second or less

I hope Bran this has provided some insight into the ways such travel is often discussed. But if your q it arises from extreme youth or confusion about terms on the part of an esl I apologize most profusely

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

I hope Bran this has provided some insight into the ways such travel is often discussed. But if your q it arises from extreme youth or confusion about terms on the part of an esl I apologize most profusely

Dale, you're rapidly losing my sympathy here. Brandon is, as far as I can see, and I have been a keen reader of science books for around 50 years, perfectly correct in what he has been saying. It is you who is being awkward, difficult, and wilfully blind. You had no call to write that to him.

Let's get one thing clear. Whether you are in a car doing 60 mph, or a spaceship doing 99.999999999999% of the speed of light, or anything in between, a ten-minute journey at your speed is going to take exactly that. Ten minutes. Do you think it wouldn't?

1 Reply

@contrex,

Quote:

a ten-minute journey at your speed is going to take exactly that. Ten minutes. Do you think it wouldn't?

Well Con, yes and no. As I understand Einstein, by her watch the trip is almost instantaneous, but our observation yields a travel time of 10 minutes

Surely you don't mean that she also experiences it as 10 minutes, that goes against every account of relativity. Maybe we're having a kind of semantic impasse

Edited to guess that your implication is that she realizes her time had "stopped"; in other words because we're "stationary" and it's she who accelerated to (near) c, that our perception of its duration is correct and hers skewed. But doesn't that imply a stationary reference denied by classical relativity

In other words, how do we know that our little visible area moves at c with respect to the rest of the Universe so when she fires her rockets on Phobos she's actually coming to a stop; that it's then we who are rushing past her

3 Replies

Speed of light revisited yet still again

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