13
   

Aren't scientists rather arrogant and elitist in abiogenetic theories?

 
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2014 12:35 am
@DNA Thumbs drive,
Quote:
Copy and paste, takes about a three year olds intellect

Your lack of self awareness continues to amaze me. How many pictures have you cut and pasted into various threads? If someone responded to any of those with this comment how much credence would you give it?
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2014 09:06 am
@hingehead,
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130209220012/looneytunes/images/5/51/Daffy_duck.jpg
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2014 11:26 am
@DNA Thumbs drive,
I always thought I was talking to a parakeet hen discussing anything with you. Now you've cleared that up with your portrait.
0 Replies
 
Rickoshay75
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Dec, 2014 11:48 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/10850325_10152882098761605_7646846989983485616_n-1.png


You could also apply that difference to Democrat (scientists) and Republicans (pseudo scientists)
0 Replies
 
TheJackal
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 02:41 am
@rosborne979,
Red blood cells don't have DNA or Genetic material. Furthermore, we know how they are made. They are not independent of the multi-cellular eukaryotic organisms either.

Furthermore, arrogance doesn't make a scientist wrong, or invalidate any evidence and research. Such a appeals are academically meaningless.
Banana Breath
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 05:35 am
@TheJackal,
Quote:
Red blood cells don't have DNA or Genetic material. Furthermore, we know how they are made. They are not independent of the multi-cellular eukaryotic organisms either.

You might know how modern red blood cells are made in the human body (stem cells in marrow, yadda yadda), but that doesn't mean that you nor anyone else knows for sure the natural history of how they came to be. Unless you're of the opinion that humans and the other mammals appeared in one keystroke by a master designer, the various components and systems had to come from somewhere, and they certainly didn't all come from the same place. A simplistic view of Darwinian evolution suggests that mutations happen, something accidentally happens that works better, and creature 2.0 appears with a slight evolutionary advantage. However in the real world things are quite a bit more complex. As Jeremy K. Nicholson, chairman of biological chemistry and head of the department of surgery and cancer at Imperial College London said, 99 percent of the functional genes in the body are microbial.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/health/16cancer.html?pagewanted=all
We aren't single creatures, we exist as colonies of creatures within a single body; we can't live as a single creature, we can't even digest our food. Google "gut bacteria transplants" (fecal bacteriotherapy) for some examples of this. The DNA coding for red blood cells might well have been co-opted from another creature at some point in the ancient past. There are a number of arguments in favor of that. One that is particularly interesting is that red blood cells have a mechanism of shedding their nuclei. They thus gain immunity from viral attacks. Far before the age of mammals, there is evidence of wars between dramatically different forms of life. Fungi and bacteria for instance battled at length. Pseudomonas bacteria developed secretions of powerful enzymes and biochemicals that can keep their fungal rivals at bay, while penicillium fungi produce the penicillin molecule that kills bacteria, which humans later co-opted in using as an antibiotic.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2013/130109.htm

TheJackal
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 06:44 am
@Banana Breath,
Actually we have a pretty good idea of the origin of red blood cells, and I quote from a statement by Stanford blood center

Quote:
primitive blood cell may have been a protohemocyte which was first involved in phagocytosis and nutrition. When metazoans (sponges) appeared [hundreds of millions of years ago], their "blood" cells, the archeocytes, were phagocytic. [Later] a progressive differentiation of several leukocytic types occurred. Differentiated cells appeared that distributed food and oxygen, thus erythrocytes evolved in certain marine or polychaete annelids [worms]."


Further evidence of this is that RBCs develop with nuclei from hematopoetic stem cells and expel their nucleus before leaving the bone marrow. Hence they are essentially Eukaryotic cells that expel their nucleus.., this to as why they don't have DNA or genetic material inside them. Essentially you can take any Eukaryotic cell and extract all the genetic material and be left with a still living cell equivalent to what a red blood cell is. The process is known as Erythropoiesis.

Quote:
Darwinian evolution suggests that mutations happen, something accidentally happens that works better, and creature 2.0


You should learn not to use uneducated talking points. Accidents first of all implies intelligence failed to do something, or does something by unintended mistake. Evolution is a process, it's not conscious and therefor does not have accidents, it rather has results and outcomes. It is a pressure driven system by the very forces of nature, these to which comprise the laws of nature and the principles of what are complex adaptive systems with feedback. Even most extreme chaotic systems are not actually random, and neither are disordered states actually without explicit order. Life and evolution are essentially electromagnetic phenomenon, and I even urge you to watch "The Secret Life of Chaos".. Hence life and living organisms are largely fractal, they develop and change under simple rules of system interactions and feedback. So even while knowing this, these systems appear random only because chaotic systems are notoriously difficult to predict since the variables can exceed predictably in accordance to the uncertainty principle. They are however never actually random chance, they are in fact force driven processes. To give an example, if you drop a ball we know gravity and the variables ahead will determine where the ball will ultimately come to rest. This includes the electromagnetic force to which not only holds the ball's atoms together, but also keeps it from passing right through the Earth all together. You can perhaps estimate where the ball might land, but the system remains chaotic in the sense that a bird may come and collide with the ball, or a rock on the ground unseen may change where you believed it would go. Nothing is actually ever random, just interacting forces and feedback, and these same principles apply to evolution and how life adapts to environmental forces and pressures.



DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 09:38 am
@TheJackal,
Red blood cells are produced by DNA, everything goes back to DNA, saying that red blood cells, with billions of lines of DNA code, happened in a warm pond is just silly.

DNA is a chemical computer code, understood and implemented by the creator.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 10:02 am
yes, the 'scientits are. Because that is what 'scientistst are' by definition.
They can't think, they can't reason,. they cant use creativity and so on and so forth.

about abiogenetic theories? They have no clue.
Rickoshay75
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 12:21 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Quehoniaomath wrote:

yes, the 'scientits are. Because that is what 'scientistst are' by definition.
They can't think, they can't reason,. they cant use creativity and so on and so forth.

about abiogenetic theories? They have no clue.


If you can't detect it with your senses it's an illusion.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 01:38 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Quote:
If you can't detect it with your senses it's an illusion.


Nope, it is ALL an illusion.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 01:48 pm
If you can't detect it with your senses...it MAY BE an illusion.

It all MAY BE an illusion.
TheJackal
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 02:06 pm
@Quehoniaomath,
Yep, you are my solipsistic projection of stupidity to amuse me.
0 Replies
 
Rickoshay75
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 02:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

If you can't detect it with your senses...it MAY BE an illusion.

It all MAY BE an illusion.



Not in my real world, as an engineer for NASA , Lockheed and Hughes, I solved real mechanical and electrical physical problems all my life.
TheJackal
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 02:39 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
Red blood cells and DNA are merely atoms governed by the the strong, weak, electromagnetic forces.. Any biological process and chemical reaction are electromagnetic, and electromagnetic phenomenon. When reproduction happens, there is no sentience involved, it is all electromagnetic reactions. There is no magical elf, and you and all life are products of what these atoms are doing according the the natural forces that govern them. There is no magical fairy changing the genetic information through the passage of time either, it's all mostly electromagnetic processes. You do comprehend that the forces of nature are "Forces" right? The emergence of self-replicating molecules is not unknown to us, and we have observation of the emergence of self-replicating RNA. We have even synthetic living cells from basic and common chemical reactions. Life is made of the most common elements in the entire Universe, this in where 20 some of the amino acids can be found to be produced by volcanic activity alone, and many others within comets and other natural geological processes.

Furthermore, you clearly are not educated enough to understand that abiogenesis has nothing to do with the validity of evolutionary synthesis. That is the study of how life might have begun, not how life evolved. And no, DNA is not a chemical computer code, it's a sequence of organic molecules governed and dictated by electromagnetism.

Btw, cognitive systems are also governed by the same laws and principles as evolution.. You're essentially using the complexity fallacy in that if something is complex, it must somehow require a sentient designer while ignoring the complexity of cognitive systems, or conscious states to which in themselves are products of complex adaptive systems with feedback. It's like the moron that claims the Universe is fine tuned for life and that somehow means intelligence was necessarily involved. This while of course woefully ignoring that the Universe or Existence itself is somehow fined tuned to support complex cognitive systems and the emergence of consciousness.. Sorry kiddo, complexity doesn't begin from the top down, complexity begins from the bottom up.. Thus only when a higher order of complex has emerged can you then have bottom up and then top down interactions and processes. Worse still, we are products of what these atoms we are made of are doing, and even anything we do, are products of what these atoms we are made of are doing. Yep, that includes creation of the brain to cognitive function and system dynamics, or even any sentient state or process. Thus when we build a car, it is still atoms building a car from other atoms.

In reality, Existence itself is an evolving and self-generating system from itself to which is the origin, cause, essence, and totality of all that exists. Existence itself is what determines what is, was, or what will ever become. We are only a part of the system and products of the system as is any conscious being, or life form etc. Thus all we are, and all any current living thing is, is a current state and form to which Existence has taken, and that changes every instant to the next. There is no magic sky daddy creating everything, it is Existence itself that which creates everything of itself.


Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 02:56 pm
@TheJackal,
Quote:
Red blood cells and DNA are merely atoms governed by the the strong, weak, electromagnetic forces.. Any biological process and chemical reaction are electromagnetic, and electromagnetic phenomenon. When reproduction happens, there is no sentience involved, it is all electromagnetic reactions. There is no magical elf, and you and all life are products of what these atoms are doing according the the natural forces that govern them. There is no magical fairy changing the genetic information through the passage of time either, it's all mostly electromagnetic processes. You do comprehend that the forces of nature are "Forces" right? The emergence of self-replicating molecules is not unknown to us, and we have observation of the emergence of self-replicating RNA. We have even synthetic living cells from basic and common chemical reactions. Life is made of the most common elements in the entire Universe, this in where 20 some of the amino acids can be found to be produced by volcanic activity alone, and many others within comets and other natural geological processes.

Furthermore, you clearly are not educated enough to understand that abiogenesis has nothing to do with the validity of evolutionary synthesis. That is the study of how life might have begun, not how life evolved. And no, DNA is not a chemical computer code, it's a sequence of organic molecules governed and dictated by electromagnetism.

Btw, cognitive systems are also governed by the same laws and principles as evolution.. You're essentially using the complexity fallacy in that if something is complex, it must somehow require a sentient designer while ignoring the complexity of cognitive systems, or conscious states to which in themselves are products of complex adaptive systems with feedback. It's like the moron that claims the Universe is fine tuned for life and that somehow means intelligence was necessarily involved. This while of course woefully ignoring that the Universe or Existence itself is somehow fined tuned to support complex cognitive systems and the emergence of consciousness.. Sorry kiddo, complexity doesn't begin from the top down, complexity begins from the bottom up.. Thus only when a higher order of complex has emerged can you then have bottom up and then top down interactions and processes. Worse still, we are products of what these atoms we are made of are doing, and even anything we do, are products of what these atoms we are made of are doing. Yep, that includes creation of the brain to cognitive function and system dynamics, or even any sentient state or process. Thus when we build a car, it is still atoms building a car from other atoms.

In reality, Existence itself is an evolving and self-generating system from itself to which is the origin, cause, essence, and totality of all that exists. Existence itself is what determines what is, was, or what will ever become. We are only a part of the system and products of the system as is any conscious being, or life form etc. Thus all we are, and all any current living thing is, is a current state and form to which Existence has taken, and that changes every instant to the next. There is no magic sky daddy creating everything, it is Existence itself that which creates everything of itself.



Amen to that!
Unbelieveable what grock!
Right out of the indoctrination handbook! I love it!
0 Replies
 
Quehoniaomath
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 02:57 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Quote:

Not in my real world, as an engineer for NASA , Lockheed and Hughes, I solved real mechanical and electrical physical problems all my life


I believe you, however that doesn't mean that it is no illusion. Of course it is!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 03:22 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Rickoshay75 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

If you can't detect it with your senses...it MAY BE an illusion.

It all MAY BE an illusion.



Not in my real world, as an engineer for NASA , Lockheed and Hughes, I solved real mechanical and electrical physical problems all my life.


I hope you were better at engineering than you are at reasoning, Rick.
0 Replies
 
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 04:25 pm
@TheJackal,
DNA is code, it does not function by electromagnetic reactions. However somehow, DNA does take atoms of the Earth, and create the animation of life. Thus it is the most powerful creation in the known universe.
Rickoshay75
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Dec, 2014 05:00 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
DNA Thumbs drive wrote:

DNA is code, it does not function by electromagnetic reactions. However somehow, DNA does take atoms of the Earth, and create the animation of life. Thus it is the most powerful creation in the known universe.


If it can't be independently demonstrated it's just another illusion.
 

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