What if no religions are correct, but there still is a God?

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot, responding to Smiley wrote:

. . .The need for God's concealment is obvious from our point of view - the preservation of free will. . . .

I'm not sure concealment is the right word. God is completely available to those who seek him. But he has allowed his adversary, the one who challenged his authority in Genesis, ch 3. a long enough leash, so that those who would deny God can feel "unwatched" - See Ezekiel 8:12

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

my friend, we share many similar thoughts indeed, on the concept of meekness however don't mistake the term meek for timid or shy, Moses was said to be the meekest of all the men that walked upon the earth, while his account would prove that he was anything but timid.

The Hebrew word for meek is taken from the root a'naw means mild tempered, without vanity or pride. It indicates that one is humble, teachable, slow to anger and able to take reproof or redirection. Jesus recommended his self as meek, when he said to learn from him and become "mild tempered and lowly of mind". God seems to be looking for a sort.

In Zephaniah 2, he appears to identify the meek as those who keep Gods commandments, rather than those who are mild while indifferent. This inclines me to believe that the majority of those that make up the meek that inherit the Earth are active and loyal servants of him.
That said, I am inclined toward your idea, that some who show the qualities God looks for while not having come to know him, may be of use in his kingdom, "not bad" should not be equated with "good."

I will try to walk you through my own thoughts on your conundrum, hopefully today,

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@Smileyrius,

I look forward to it.

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@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

Smileyrius wrote:
I'm no psychiatrist, but I understand that people act differently when they believe they are being watched.

That being the case, why would god ever want to reveal itself at all? Wouldn't it be better just to make itself completely indiscernible?

Perhaps there is a balance between being aloof enough for people to do as they please, and being present enough that people may choose serve him if that is what pleases them.

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@Smileyrius,

That seems unnecessary given the requirement for having faith, rather than evidence, as the basis of the belief. Is faith not the basis?

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

I agree with this, but I don't remember you mentioning any empirical, testable, useful results in your list of clues. As a matter of fact, your "primary clues" were "internal" as you put it, basically feelings. What did I miss?

Yes, I said the clues were (mainly but not all) internal. But following the clues leads to very concrete results. That is not to say that the path will be easy but the results are more than worth it. To list my results would be just blowing my horn or else not relavant to you.

The results may not be the same for everyone but they will be just what you need.

But you are inferring that 'feelings' have no value or validity. What is the value of happiness, satisfaction, or love? There are fortunes spent on psychiatrists in search of things 'all in your head', mostly without success if what I read is correct.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

I'm not sure concealment is the right word. God is completely available to those who seek him. But he has allowed his adversary, the one who challenged his authority in Genesis, ch 3. a long enough leash, so that those who would deny God can feel "unwatched" - See Ezekiel 8:12

I think I've made that point several times but it bears repeating.

The verse "Seek and ye shall find" could not be clearer.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

That seems unnecessary given the requirement for having faith, rather than evidence, as the basis of the belief. Is faith not the basis?

Apparently it takes very little faith for it to grow into something much much bigger. (I can hear Setanta thinking 'yeah, a delusional mind' : ) What it grows into no longer fits the description of faith anymore although faith remains. After planting the seed of faith you often find yourself saying - why didn't I see that before. It's more than just drinking the koolaid.

I once questioned God about the apparent unfairness of the blatant clues of a creator available from science to today's people (Big Bang, DNA, etc) that were not available before. That was before I stumbled onto a2k and saw how easily those clues could be rationalized and dismissed : ) Now I'm pretty sure we're all on a level playing field.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I once questioned God about the apparent unfairness of the blatant clues of a creator available from science to today's people (Big Bang, DNA, etc) that were not available before. That was before I stumbled onto a2k and saw how easily those clues could be rationalized and dismissed : ) Now I'm pretty sure we're all on a level playing field.

Thus you define the very bases of delusion. A delusion is creating and believing in an alternate universe, against all reason and fact, even though a well evidenced universe already exists and lies before you.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

. A delusion is creating and believing in an alternate universe, against all reason and fact, even though a well evidenced universe already exists and lies before you.

I'm perfectly ok with reason and fact and the well evidenced universe before us.

But even science allows for alternative universes.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

the book does say that the meek shall inherit the earth so I am looking for something that will make sense of this apparent contradiction. To make it even harder, the book also tells us as followers to be bold, fearless, uncompromising, etc. in pursuit of God which sounds anything but 'meek'.

Atheists and other skeptics often ask about the absurdity of sending people to hell who are peaceable, kind, and 'moral' but who never saw the value in seeking God. It's a good question and I wonder if 'inheriting the earth' is not the thing that answers all these apparent contradictions.

The best I can do in this one is highlight Jesus words to his apostles

Quote:

“I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel

So while Jesus apostles and perhaps others will sit on thrones alongside him, he mentioned that the 12 tribes of Israel would make up the subjects of the kingdom. Of course Jesus as the fulfilment of the Covenant God had with Israel, declared that the physical nation of Israel was abandoned to themselves, which leaves me with the so called "meek that inherit the earth." or Gods spiritual nation filling the role of the "12 tribes of Israel",

I know I haven't directly quoted scripture, but if you need source and reference, I am happy to fish them out Smile

2 Replies

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
I agree with this, but I don't remember you mentioning any empirical, testable, useful results in your list of clues. As a matter of fact, your "primary clues" were "internal" as you put it, basically feelings. What did I miss?
Yes, I said the clues were (mainly but not all) internal. But following the clues leads to very concrete results.

Can you provide some examples of what these concrete results might look like, or even better, some real-world actual examples?

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

I once questioned God about the apparent unfairness of the blatant clues of a creator available from science to today's people (Big Bang, DNA, etc) that were not available before.

You've mentioned exchanges like this before including one which was quite dramatic for you (the experience of feeling a world without god). I assume you are speaking metaphorically about speaking to god, right? Or do you actually hear a voice or something?

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

rosborne979 wrote:

That seems unnecessary given the requirement for having faith, rather than evidence, as the basis of the belief. Is faith not the basis?

Faith . . .
Evidence . . .
Belief . . .
Is anecdotal evidence sufficient for belief? Or should we believe only that which has the stamp of "empirical certainty?

1 Reply

@Smileyrius,

Quote:

The best I can do in this one is highlight Jesus words to his apostles
Quote:
“I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel"

So while Jesus apostles and perhaps others will sit on thrones alongside him, he mentioned that the 12 tribes of Israel would make up the subjects of the kingdom. Of course Jesus as the fulfilment of the Covenant God had with Israel, declared that the physical nation of Israel was abandoned to themselves, which leaves me with the so called "meek that inherit the earth." or Gods spiritual nation filling the role of the "12 tribes of Israel",

I know I haven't directly quoted scripture, but if you need source and reference, I am happy to fish them out

The 'meat' of your explaination here rests on what we interpret some of the things Jesus said to mean. As always, I make no claim of infalibility, these are just my thoughts on them (albeit after giving them lots of consideration).

As with almost all of Jesus's statements where he said 'you' to his apostles and others, I feel certain he knew he was speaking to the larger audience of his followers then and today. I think that's true of this one too so I'm glad you included 'perhaps others' who would sit with him. I don't know for certain who all that includes but I'm guessing it's more than a few. It might be the entirety of his followers or it might mean what was called 'the first fruits' of his kingdom.

'The 12 tribes' is even more uncertain. It might mean the Jewish people or it might mean 'everybody else'. The bible also says 'you shall judge Angels' , so the 12 tribes does not fully describe who all will be in the ones to be judged. I also assumed the ones at the table already had their turn at judgement.

And then there is the question of what are the alternatives faced by those being judged, which is the question I started with. The conventional answer in most religions is either heaven or hell (2nd death). I was wondering if 'an eternal life sentence on earth' was another possible verdict.

Thanks for your thoughts. No scriptural references required unless I see something questionable. Didn't see anything there that wasn't kosher.

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

Quote:

@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
"I once questioned God about the apparent unfairness of the blatant clues of a creator available from science to today's people (Big Bang, DNA, etc) that were not available before."

You've mentioned exchanges like this before including one which was quite dramatic for you (the experience of feeling a world without god). I assume you are speaking metaphorically about speaking to god, right? Or do you actually hear a voice or something?

My words to God were metaphorical only in the sense that I didn't actually verbalize the thoughts. I assume God can hear those without sound being required.

There was only one occasion when I actually heard a voice but that too was probably 'all in my head'. But I did perceive them as clearly spoken English words. I was either dead or almost dead at the time (because I wanted to be). I'll even tell you what they were. They were: "I will tell you". (At the time, There was a question I wanted the answer to that I was unwilling to live without)

I did not expect more words, I assumed he would skillfully lead me to discover the answer myself as he had done every time before. Not that I had not tried already, as I said, I was ready to die in frustration of my inability to find it before. I think it was about two weeks later that he made good on his word. I did discover it on my own but it was only by using the tools and clues he had given me in the years before that. I know that sounds nebulous but there is no way to make the answer make sense to you without knowing my life history before that. It was just what I needed though and I couldn't have guessed it without those experiences.

You asked about the concrete results I got from following 'internal clues'. I didn't specify them because they too can be dismissed as coincidences so I don't expect they will convince anyone. One that causes me to shake my head all the time is the litteral way one of the promises made by his son was fulfilled in my own life.

I was 44 at the time, working as an engineer and doing ok financially but I had started writing a book about 'life, universe and everything' some years before and wanted to spend more time on it. I could not give it the attention it needed while holding down a job so I asked God if the promise that if we put seeking him first he would give us all the things we needed for our earthly existence. (I think it's in Matthew). I felt that effort to define it, find the words and write it down was my effort to seek him. It was all I wanted to do.

How I ended up a year later as the CEO of my own successful company that required very little of my time and with very little effort still mystifies me. I quit my job at Lockheed Martin and spent virtually all my time on writing and research from then on. OK, full disclosure, I play a lot too.

The promise goes on to say something like, ' see if I will not pour you out a blessing more than you can hold' proved equally true. I don't know what to do with it all.

1 Reply

@Smileyrius,

Just an aside, why don't you use apostrophes or, sometimes, periods or colons?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Is anecdotal evidence sufficient for belief?

Not if the claim is extraordinary.

If someone says they saw a bird eat a worm then anecdotal evidence is sufficient. But if they say they have a magical dragon in their back yard then until they come up with some solid proof, only a fool would believe them.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

How I ended up a year later as the CEO of my own successful company that required very little of my time and with very little effort still mystifies me.

On a side note, what does your company do?

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

Quote:

On a side note, what does your company do?

Design, manufacture and sell parts needed by experimental aircraft builders.
I can't be more specific than that in order to keep anonymity. It's a small world.

1 Reply

What if no religions are correct, but there still is a God?

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