Am i the only one?

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon...there may be ALL SORTS OF SIGNS OF IT...but you are not willing to accept any of them.

Neither am I...but at least I am willing to concede that EVERYTHING we see (or assume to see) MAY BE signs of it.

Open your mind a bit...and maybe you will be able to concede that also.

If you want me to concede it, tell me one of these so-called signs.

You!

You MAY BE one of those signs, Brandon.

So concede it.

Brandon9000 wrote:

I suspect that there is no God partly because there is no evidence that one exists. Also, because if a God created the universe and maintains a hand in our lives, one would expect some sign of it.

Jesus H. Christ, Brandon...there may be a universe full of signs of it. But if you are going to reject it because of your blind guess that there are no gods...you will never ever see it.

You are not looking for proof...you are looking for evidence.

All of the universe MAY BE evidence of it.

We really do not know...right?

Quote:

What is the evidence that a God exists which leads believers to suspect that one does?

My guess is that most theists do not think along those lines. They (similar to you) have simply made up their minds...and are sticking with it no matter what.

The existence of the stars, planets, cats etc. are not evidence for the existence of God, because those phenomena do not particularly indicate the existence of a God.

They admit other, more mundane explanations.

How about giving me some evidence which is more likely to be attributable to a God that to other causes?

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon...there may be ALL SORTS OF SIGNS OF IT...but you are not willing to accept any of them.

Neither am I...but at least I am willing to concede that EVERYTHING we see (or assume to see) MAY BE signs of it.

Open your mind a bit...and maybe you will be able to concede that also.

If you want me to concede it, tell me one of these so-called signs.

You!

You MAY BE one of those signs, Brandon.

So concede it.

My existence was caused by my mother and father having a child. How would this be a sign that a God exists?

Quote:

The existence of the stars, planets, cats etc. are not evidence for the existence of God, because those phenomena do not particularly indicate the existence of a God.

They do not particularly indicate the existence of a god, Brandon...but IF there is a god (something we do not know for sure)...then THEY ARE EVIDENCE OF THE GOD.

But you have your mind so tightly closed, you apparently cannot concede that.

Fine...I deal with theists who have that same problem all the time.

Quote:

They admit other, more mundane explanations.

Not even sure what that means.

Quote:

How about giving me some evidence which is more likely to be attributable to a God that to other causes?

I already have. The universe and everything in it MAY be evidence of a god. You simply do not want to acknowledge that...and are essentially asking for proof of the existence of a god.

Nobody can give you that.

But if you open your mind rather than keeping it as tightly shut as you are...you may be able to see the argument I am making as valid and logical.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon...there may be ALL SORTS OF SIGNS OF IT...but you are not willing to accept any of them.

Neither am I...but at least I am willing to concede that EVERYTHING we see (or assume to see) MAY BE signs of it.

Open your mind a bit...and maybe you will be able to concede that also.

If you want me to concede it, tell me one of these so-called signs.

You!

You MAY BE one of those signs, Brandon.

So concede it.

My existence was caused by my mother and father having a child. How would this be a sign that a God exists?

Go back and see the words "MAY BE"...and then get someone to help you understand what they mean.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

The existence of the stars, planets, cats etc. are not evidence for the existence of God, because those phenomena do not particularly indicate the existence of a God.

They do not particularly indicate the existence of a god, Brandon...but IF there is a god (something we do not know for sure)...then THEY ARE EVIDENCE OF THE GOD.

But you have your mind so tightly closed, you apparently cannot concede that.

Fine...I deal with theists who have that same problem all the time.

And if my successes in life are the result of intervention by kindly aliens in a ship in solar orbit, then my successes are evidence of intervention by kindly aliens. However, my life's successes are, in fact, not evidence of this. The reasoning is false.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

They admit other, more mundane explanations.

Not even sure what that means.

You offer as evidence for the existence of God, things which could easily be explained in other ways.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

How about giving me some evidence which is more likely to be attributable to a God that to other causes?

I already have. The universe and everything in it MAY be evidence of a god. You simply do not want to acknowledge that...and are essentially asking for proof of the existence of a god.

Nobody can give you that.

But if you open your mind rather than keeping it as tightly shut as you are...you may be able to see the argument I am making as valid and logical.

I asked for phenomena which are more likely to be attributable to God than to other causes. Please produce some such evidence and not just things which could be caused by a God but could easily be explained in other ways.

You are getting all the answers and responses you are asking for, Brandon.

You simply have your mind closed to any possibilities other than the ones you want to see. That is your loss...not mine.

I'll stick here with you, though. Who knows...the concrete might crack.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Brandon...there may be ALL SORTS OF SIGNS OF IT...but you are not willing to accept any of them.

Neither am I...but at least I am willing to concede that EVERYTHING we see (or assume to see) MAY BE signs of it.

Open your mind a bit...and maybe you will be able to concede that also.

If you want me to concede it, tell me one of these so-called signs.

You!

You MAY BE one of those signs, Brandon.

So concede it.

My existence was caused by my mother and father having a child. How would this be a sign that a God exists?

Go back and see the words "MAY BE"...and then get someone to help you understand what they mean.

And it may be evidence of lots of other things. So how does it further the argument for the existence of a God? The fact that your name is Frank, may be the results of action by God, but since it may also be explained in other ways, it is not evidence for the existence of God. Such evidence would be phenomena that are likely to be the result of a God and unlikely to be attributable to other causes. This is false reasoning.

My reasoning is not "false"...although it obviously is not what you want to hear or consider.

The problems here, Brandon, are not to be found in my arguments or comments. They will be found in your steadfast refusal to even consider the MAY BE and IF aspects of what I am saying.

IF there is a creator god (we do not know if there is one or not)...then everything you see (or suppose you see) IS evidence of the existence of that god.

What you want is proof.

Nobody can give you that.

Frank Apisa wrote:

You are getting all the answers and responses you are asking for, Brandon.

You simply have your mind closed to any possibilities other than the ones you want to see. That is your loss...not mine.

I'll stick here with you, though. Who knows...the concrete might crack.

No, I have stated here my reasons for thinking that belief in God is illogical. I have not closed my mind to other possibilities. No one here has yet stated a valid reason for believing or suspecting that God exists.

Frank Apisa wrote:

My reasoning is not "false"...although it obviously is not what you want to hear or consider.

The problems here, Brandon, are not to be found in my arguments or comments. They will be found in your steadfast refusal to even consider the MAY BE and IF aspects of what I am saying.

IF there is a creator god (we do not know if there is one or not)...then everything you see (or suppose you see) IS evidence of the existence of that god.

What you want is proof.

Nobody can give you that.

And if my successes in life are the result of intervention by kindly aliens in a ship in solar orbit, then my successes are evidence of intervention by kindly aliens. However, my life's successes are, in fact, not evidence of this. The reasoning is false.

There is nothing "false" about my reasoning, Brandon. You simply have got you mind so closed to the arguments being made...that they cannot penetrate.

Like I said...your problem, not mine.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

You are getting all the answers and responses you are asking for, Brandon.

You simply have your mind closed to any possibilities other than the ones you want to see. That is your loss...not mine.

I'll stick here with you, though. Who knows...the concrete might crack.

No, I have stated here my reasons for thinking that belief in God is illogical. I have not closed my mind to other possibilities. No one here has yet stated a valid reason for believing or suspecting that God exists.

Asserting that gods exist...is illogical. "Believing" that they exist (which is to say, guessing that they exist)...IS NOT illogical.

Asserting that there are no gods...is illogical. "Believing" there are no gods (which is to say, guessing that there are no gods)...IS NOT illogical.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that any carbon-based sentient creatures exist on any planet circling the nearest five stars to Sol...BUT THAT IS NOT REASON to say it is illogical to guess there are (or are not) any such life forms.

Stop with the nonsense. Open your mind.

Frank Apisa wrote:

There is nothing "false" about my reasoning, Brandon. You simply have got you mind so closed to the arguments being made...that they cannot penetrate.

Like I said...your problem, not mine.

One thing false about your reasoning, for instance, is that you say, and I paraphrase:

If there is a God, then everything is evidence for the existence of God

This argument is obviously specious. If my life's successes are the result of intervention by aliens in a nearby spaceship, then my life's successes are evidence for their existence. This argument hardly supports the idea that such aliens are responsible.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

My reasoning is not "false"...although it obviously is not what you want to hear or consider.

The problems here, Brandon, are not to be found in my arguments or comments. They will be found in your steadfast refusal to even consider the MAY BE and IF aspects of what I am saying.

IF there is a creator god (we do not know if there is one or not)...then everything you see (or suppose you see) IS evidence of the existence of that god.

What you want is proof.

Nobody can give you that.

And if my successes in life are the result of intervention by kindly aliens in a ship in solar orbit, then my successes are evidence of intervention by kindly aliens. However, my life's successes are, in fact, not evidence of this. The reasoning is false.

The reasoning is not false...although you seem to want to characterize it as such.

Fine. Do so. Your loss...not mine.

Believing or guessing that God exists is illogical because there is little, if any, evidence that it is so.

Brandon9000 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

There is nothing "false" about my reasoning, Brandon. You simply have got you mind so closed to the arguments being made...that they cannot penetrate.

Like I said...your problem, not mine.

One thing false about your reasoning, for instance, is that you say, and I paraphrase:

If there is a God, then everything is evidence for the existence of God

This argument is obviously specious. If my life's successes are the result of intervention by aliens in a nearby spaceship, then my life's successes are evidence for their existence. This argument hardly supports the idea that such aliens are responsible.

Open your mind, Brandon.

I am not trying to support the idea that there is a god.

I am simply trying to suggest to you, a guy with a tightly shut mind, that IF THERE IS A CREATOR GOD...then everything you see (or think you see) IS evidence that the god exists.

It is a tautology of sorts...