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What are Your Beliefs of Suicide?

 
 
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2014 01:36 pm
In the Robin Williams thread there seems to be some consensus that we wish that suicide did not happen but there are no reasons given, and their seems to be no other consensus. Someone who I dont know named Henry Robbins wrote in LA weekly about Willaims:

Quote:
On more than one of my USO tours, Robin Williams had been on the same stage a few days before me. That’s all I needed to know about him. As far as I was concerned, he was a good man.

But it’s here where I step off the train. I am sure some will strongly disagree with what I’m about to say. And I also understand that his personal struggles were quite real. I can’t argue with that.

But I simply cannot understand how any parent could kill themselves.

How in the hell could you possibly do that to your children? I don’t care how well adjusted your kid might be — choosing to kill yourself, rather than to be there for that child, is every shade of awful, traumatic and confusing. I think as soon as you have children, you waive your right to take your own life. No matter what mistakes you make in life, it should be your utmost goal not to traumatize your kids. So, you don’t kill yourself.

http://www.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/2014/08/21/henry-rollins-****-suicide#more

Where do you stand? Do you owe it to people to stick around no matter how deep your pain? Is your choosing to go anyone elses business? Should we try to talk people out of suicide or snitch on them to the state trying to keep them here? If you do decide to go do you owe your loved ones an explaination?

My view: Undecided. My socialism teaches me that we need to try to keep each other mentally healthy and I would take the fact that someone is in so much pain that they want to go as proof that they are not healthy and I need to help them. On the other hand if a person is not in pain and is just bored with life who I am to tell them that they need to stick it out? I do believe that I owe my loved ones an explanation. I also cant imagine ever deciding that I want to do suicide, much less actually doing it.
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2014 02:06 pm
@hawkeye10,
I also dont agree with this Robbins fella, volunteering to participate in the societal project of birthing and raising the next generation can never be a prison sentence, because once it is we will lack for volunteers. Parents already give a lot, lets not add to the load. I am deeply not happy with the criminalization of parenting that we have been seeing over these last years. I am thinking of such stuff as the recent example of a parent being arrested because they let a 7 year old go to the park alone

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-son-park/
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2014 02:53 pm
If someone decides to take his/her life...very strong, very painful things are happening in that life.

To suggest that someone is required to endure the kinds of pain that must be happening because of some debt to the person's kids...is absurd in my opinion.

For all anyone knows, the children will gain more knowledge about life because of this event than if it never happened...even more, if the "never happens" leads to living with someone destroying a family with personal grief.

I think this Robbins guy is full of himself and full of crap.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2014 03:28 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If someone decides to take his/her life...very strong, very painful things are happening in that life.


How do you know? Are you sure you are not simply making an assumption so that you can give them a excuse that you approve of??
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2014 03:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
If someone decides to take his/her life...very strong, very painful things are happening in that life.


How do you know? Are you sure you are not simply making an assumption so that you can give them a excuse that you approve of??


Okay, you've got a point. Let me reword it:

If someone decides to take his/her life...there is the possibility, perhaps even the probability, that some thing that could easily be considered by a reasonable person to be strong and painful....MIGHT be happening in that life.

Feel better?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2014 03:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Feel better?

as per usual I dont consider my feelings to be relevant. In any case your poor wording of your opinion is all about you, not about me.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2014 03:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Feel better?

as per usual I dont consider my feelings to be relevant. In any case your poor wording of your opinion is all about you, not about me.


Jeez, Hawk. You asked for comments...and I gave them.

You didn't like what I said...so I revised them for you.

'Sup?

Maybe you ought to consider larger underwear.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2014 12:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
If someone wants to die - It's their choice - I have no issue with other folk's choices.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2014 01:23 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

If someone wants to die - It's their choice - I have no issue with other folk's choices.


So if I choose to kill you that is fine, because I made a choice......
JLNobody
 
  3  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2014 05:33 pm
@mark noble,
I agree with you, Mark (and with Nietzsche): Just as everyone has a right to his life he has a right to his death. It goes without saying, of course, that he must make the decicsion, like Hamlet, very carefully. But it is certainly not my right to force him to suffer unnecessarily.
Enaj
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2014 06:14 pm
When someone is in so much pain and depression they are not always able to think clearly and reason about the consequences of what they are doing. I think if they did they wouldn't do it.

If it goes on and on, seeming to have no imminent improvement , sometimes all they want is relief, and when in that much pain and depression the permanence of it isn't always realized.
PhilipOSopher
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2014 03:45 am
@Enaj,
I'm inclined to agree with marknoble - an individual is the only person who ought to have the most control over their destiny, and if this includes choosing to kill themselves then this is acceptable. However, the choice to commit suicide is more acceptable depending on how 'reliably informed' it is and how objective and rational the agent is, and this gets onto dodgy ground as it is hard to be reliably informed when we don't know for certain if anything happens after we die, and there is the argument that certain mental illnesses which may lead to a person having suicidal thoughts skew this rational capacity.
But regardless of how an individual may be swayed in making such a choice, I would argue that they still possess that capacity to choose for themselves, so even if they are 'unreliably informed' they should still be able to make that decision.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2014 05:49 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

I agree with you, Mark (and with Nietzsche): Just as everyone has a right to his life he has a right to his death. It goes without saying, of course, that he must make the decicsion, like Hamlet, very carefully. But it is certainly not my right to force him to suffer unnecessarily.

is the suffering known or is it rather assumed? If it is assumed what is the basis of this assumption?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2014 05:52 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

JLNobody wrote:

I agree with you, Mark (and with Nietzsche): Just as everyone has a right to his life he has a right to his death. It goes without saying, of course, that he must make the decicsion, like Hamlet, very carefully. But it is certainly not my right to force him to suffer unnecessarily.

is the suffering known or is it rather assumed? If it is assumed what is the basis of this assumption?


If a person wants to end his/her life...he/she should have a right to do so...and should not have to justify it to anyone.

Get over yourself in thinking that you or anyone else should have the right to make that decision for the person.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2014 11:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Get over yourself in thinking that you or anyone else should have the right to make that decision for the person.



You do realize that until very recently humans generally felt we had the right to discourage suicide, and at least in the West generally did....right? Even now I am not aware of any polling that tells me that my peers overwhelmingly take your position. Thirdly, I have taken no firm position on the question, but if people disagreeing with you is a problem for you then stay in threads where there is no difference of opinion.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2014 11:52 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Get over yourself in thinking that you or anyone else should have the right to make that decision for the person.



You do realize that until very recently humans generally felt we had the right to discourage suicide, and at least in the West generally did....right? Even now I am not aware of any polling that tells me that my peers overwhelmingly take your position. Thirdly, I have taken no firm position on the question, but if people disagreeing with you is a problem for you then stay in threads where there is no difference of opinion.


I have no problem with people who disagree with me.

I try to state my position as forcefully as possible...and expect people who differ with me to do the same thing.

This is A2K, Hawk. Lots of heat in this kitchen...and we are both use to it.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2014 12:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
My best friend died last night--massive stroke following six years of illness.. I always understood him to maintain that suicide was better than severe chronic misery. Yet when he developed multiple cancers and other forms of physical torture he underwent the most grueling of medical miseriess for years. Last night was virtuallly inevitable and I think he knew it. But he had to try. I respect his choices in this matter even though I hope I will take a different path when my time comes. And I hope others will respect my choiices.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2014 01:06 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
And I hope others will respect my choices.

where do you stand on others trying to talk to you about your options, about maybe trying to talk you into one road or the other?

There are reports that Robin Williams did not leave a suicide note at the scene but he did write a bunch of notes and got them to people explaining why he did what he did. We do you stand on giving explanations?
Enaj
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2014 05:59 pm
@PhilipOSopher,
I agree that they have a choice, but when going through whatever their problem is, I think that they do not think rationally.

That doesn't mean that they don't have a right to decide, they do, it is their life. But hopefully they do consider how it will affect all those that care for them.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2014 03:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
When it comes to something as critical as that I think it best to play it by ear. I'll do what feels right for me and I expect others will do the same.
 

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