What are Your Beliefs of Suicide?

mark noble wrote:

If someone wants to die - It's their choice - I have no issue with other folk's choices.

I agree that it's their choice and I'd let them do it.

A problem that arises however, is that many attempted suicides are never completed..The individual involved, some how mess up the whole process and in the end, they're worse off medically/phsiologically .

Razzleg wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

For all anyone knows, the children will gain more knowledge about life because of this event than if it never happened...even more, if the "never happens" leads to living with someone destroying a family with personal grief.

Suicide is not an act that i feel needs to be justified; as an act, it's a step beyond either justification or denigration. But to justify it, anyway, as a "teachable moment" is grotesque.

If you find it "grotesque", Razz...you find it grotesque. That is your right.

That does not make it grotesque, however, it merely tells the world your opinion about it.

Which is what I was doing...giving an opinion about something.

And for the record...ANYTHING can be a "teachable moment."

ANYTHING!

Frank Apisa wrote:

Razzleg wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

For all anyone knows, the children will gain more knowledge about life because of this event than if it never happened...even more, if the "never happens" leads to living with someone destroying a family with personal grief.

Suicide is not an act that i feel needs to be justified; as an act, it's a step beyond either justification or denigration. But to justify it, anyway, as a "teachable moment" is grotesque.

If you find it "grotesque", Razz...you find it grotesque. That is your right.

That does not make it grotesque, however, it merely tells the world your opinion about it.

Which is what I was doing...giving an opinion about something.

And for the record...ANYTHING can be a "teachable moment."

ANYTHING!

You are, also, more than welcome to your opinion about my opinion regarding your opinion. But you didn't offer (or present) your opinion, in the quote i first responded to, as an opinion -- you offered it as an hypothesis. Can you defend it, with data, in any way? "The children of suicides may be better off: here are the numbers"...

As for the rest of your last post, i rest easy in recognizing your inability to distinguish between "learning moment" and "teachable moment". Unfortunately for those who know you, you, apparently, don't know the difference between "teaching" and "traumatizing", much less "learning" and "enduring". In some way, i agree: all moments are learning moments -- on the other hand, "teachable moments" (the transmission of useful knowledge from an elder) is rarer than we'd like to think.

Razzleg wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Razzleg wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

For all anyone knows, the children will gain more knowledge about life because of this event than if it never happened...even more, if the "never happens" leads to living with someone destroying a family with personal grief.

Suicide is not an act that i feel needs to be justified; as an act, it's a step beyond either justification or denigration. But to justify it, anyway, as a "teachable moment" is grotesque.

If you find it "grotesque", Razz...you find it grotesque. That is your right.

That does not make it grotesque, however, it merely tells the world your opinion about it.

Which is what I was doing...giving an opinion about something.

And for the record...ANYTHING can be a "teachable moment."

ANYTHING!

You are, also, more than welcome to your opinion about my opinion regarding your opinion. But you didn't offer (or present) your opinion, in the quote i first responded to, as an opinion -- you offered it as an hypothesis. Can you defend it, with data, in any way? "The children of suicides may be better off: here are the numbers"...

All I said was, "For all anyone knows...."

If you do not understand what I was getting at...tough.

Razzleg wrote:

As for the rest of your last post, i rest easy in recognizing your inability to distinguish between "learning moment" and "teachable moment". Unfortunately for those who know you, you, apparently, don't know the difference between "teaching" and "traumatizing", much less "learning" and "enduring". In some way, i agree: all moments are learning moments -- on the other hand, "teachable moments" (the transmission of useful knowledge from an elder) is rarer than we'd like to think.

IF you feel the wording "teachable moment" should have been "learning moment"...feel free to substitute it. YOU were the one who brought the term "teachable moment" into this discussion...not I.

Either way, the point I was making is the same.

In any case, I repeat: If someone wants to commit suicide...they can do so in my moral code. If yours is different...and they have to check with you or some god first...that is your problem.[/b]

Frank Apisa wrote:

Razzleg wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Razzleg wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

For all anyone knows, the children will gain more knowledge about life because of this event than if it never happened...even more, if the "never happens" leads to living with someone destroying a family with personal grief.

Suicide is not an act that i feel needs to be justified; as an act, it's a step beyond either justification or denigration. But to justify it, anyway, as a "teachable moment" is grotesque.

If you find it "grotesque", Razz...you find it grotesque. That is your right.

That does not make it grotesque, however, it merely tells the world your opinion about it.

Which is what I was doing...giving an opinion about something.

And for the record...ANYTHING can be a "teachable moment."

ANYTHING!

You are, also, more than welcome to your opinion about my opinion regarding your opinion. But you didn't offer (or present) your opinion, in the quote i first responded to, as an opinion -- you offered it as an hypothesis. Can you defend it, with data, in any way? "The children of suicides may be better off: here are the numbers"...

All I said was, "For all anyone knows...."

If you do not understand what I was getting at...tough.

"For all anyone knows: blankety blank blank" is a prime example of a hypothesis. A hypothesis, if it is to hold water, needs to be tested and become a theory. i got what you were getting at, and i challenged it. You sought to rationally defend a position based on "the unknown", and i asked you to clarify that position without the crutch of self-imposed ignorance. Sorry if that makes your position difficult...

As for the rest of your last post, i rest easy in recognizing your inability to distinguish between "learning moment" and "teachable moment".

Unfortunately for those who know you, you, apparently, don't know the difference between "teaching" and "traumatizing", much less "learning" and "enduring".

In some way, i agree: all moments are learning moments -- on the other hand, "teachable moments" (the transmission of useful knowledge from an elder) is rarer than we'd like to think.

Quote:

IF you feel the wording "teachable moment" should have been "learning moment"...feel free to substitute it. YOU were the one who brought the term "teachable moment" into this discussion...not I.

Either way, the point I was making is the same.

Nope, it isn't. The difference between "teachable" and "learnable" is clear, and your attempt to justify suicide by implying that the suicidal actor instructs her heirs implies a pathetic misunderstanding of both tradition, education, and experience..

Frank Apisa wrote:

In any case, I repeat: If someone wants to commit suicide...they can do so in my moral code. If yours is different...and they have to check with you or some god first...that is your problem.[/b]

That is, in fact, not my problem..

i think that it is cute that you need to stereotype your detractors, but also annoying that the only part of my earliest post that you happened to read was the part that addressed your statement. i don't think that you actually read any of my later posts in total, otherwise, you wouldn't have invoked religious bodies. i certainly never mentioned them...

In my opinion, suicide is neither a moral, nor an immoral act; it is a tragic one,

it exists without the requirement of my judgement or the judgement of some of hypothetical deity -- and any "system" constructed to "justify" it, one way or the other, is flawed.

Your "moral code" is equally irrelevant regarding this topic, so please stop trying to pretend that your judgement has any relevance regarding what people "can" (v. what they "will" or are "compelled" to) do regarding their own lives (or the decided end thereof).

If someone decides to take his/her life...there is the possibility, perhaps even the probability, that some thing that could easily be considered by a reasonable person to be strong and painful....MIGHT be happening in that life.

To suggest that someone is required to endure the kinds of pain that must be happening because of some debt to the person's kids...is absurd in my opinion.

For all anyone knows, the children will gain more knowledge about life because of this event than if it never happened...even more, if the "never happens" leads to living with someone destroying a family with personal grief.

I think this Robbins guy is full of himself and full of crap.

What are Your Beliefs of Suicide?

Then an outlet should be provided for the assistance thereof.
I would suggest state-sponsored cessation centres.
Just sign on the dotted line and off-to-go.
Grind up the remains and use as fertilisers.

Truth be told, nobody can interfere with a person's desire to go through with suicide , unless you are at a hospital or other institution. Unfortunately, there are those with botched attempts...and wind up complicating their lives even more. It's truly sad. I knew a guy who shot himself in the mouth and lived. I say...better do your homework if that's the route you choose.

mark noble wrote:

Then an outlet should be provided for the assistance thereof.
I would suggest state-sponsored cessation centres.
Just sign on the dotted line and off-to-go.
Grind up the remains and use as fertilisers.

Sounds extreme...but good to me.

Assisted suicide seems like the most humane way to work things...but the religious people will veto that...and they always seem to have veto power.