28
   

Why do we deliberately fool ourselves?

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Tue 9 Sep, 2014 12:10 pm
@Setanta,
That's it. It's impossible to have a civil discussion with you.
usery
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 12:53 am
@fresco,
Quote:
@fresco,
Quote:
Atheism can only be justified by the catalytic status of religion in promoting social pernicious, not by appeal to logic.


Would you please justify atheism, "by the catalytic status of religion in promoting social pernicious" (sic) ?


Quote:
If you are looking for depth of argument, you might consider further that what I see as the key question....that of the nature of "existence" itself....pre-empts all discussion of "logic" or "evidence". If we assume (like Kant) that we have no direct access to any "external reality" we surely surely come to the phenomenological position that such "a reality" is at best a cognitive construction acquired through that interactive behavior which human's call "language". Further, we can argue that is the abstract persistence of "words" rather than the known dynamic flux of physical entities which serves our psychological requirement of a stable "world" relative to our human activities of planning and prediction. When you think about it, today's "tree in the yard" is only the same as yesterday's "tree in the yard" by virtue of its continued functionality denoted by the word "tree". In essence that "tree" is physically/biologically changing all the time. What persists is merely what functionally matters to particular human interlocutors. And what can be argued for the word/concept "tree" can be argued for "rock" or"self" or "God". Their existential status is as temporary as the value of tokens of monetary currency like dollar bills. And that value is determined by social functionality nothing more. Of course deists will tend to counter this by evoking a nebulousexceptional permanence to the status of their "God" but this is merely equivalent to a faith in "the Gold Standard".

This re-focusing of philosophical questions about ontology towards linguistic issues ( what Philosophers have called Die Kehre ...the turn) comes from the understanding that (post the rise of psychology) language does not so much represent "reality" as construct it. Those interested might refer to Rorty (Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature) as a seminal work.


What a load of obfuscatory verbosity and irritant persiflage old bean.

Keep up the good work.

Feel free to attempt to 'justify atheism' or be damned, lol.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 01:17 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Oh man, get a mirror. I took a lot of time and trouble to attempt to provide you what you asked for, which was historically documented--and you just blew it all off, and kept sneering about "historically documented." But, of course, it can't be your fault, so it must be mine.
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 03:05 am
People fool themselves because of fear. Why else must they fool themselves? To distract themselves from what? Fear. Fear of what? All the things which causes fear.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 04:11 am
@One Eyed Mind,
Can not a man fool his self without fear? rather can not a man fear without fooling his self?
FBM
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 04:36 am
Then there's Becker:

Quote:
Human beings are mortal, and we know it. Our sense of vulnerability and mortality gives rise to a basic anxiety, even a terror, about our situation. So we devise all sorts of strategies to escape awareness of our mortality and vulnerability, as well as our anxious awareness of it. This psychological denial of death, Becker claims, is one of the most basic drives in individual behavior, and is reflected throughout human culture. Indeed, one of the main functions of culture, according to Becker, is to help us successfully avoid awareness of our mortality. That suppression of awareness plays a crucial role in keeping people functioning--if we were constantly aware of our fragility, of the nothingness we are a split second away from at all times, we'd go nuts. And how does culture perform this crucial function? By making us feel certain that we, or realities we are part of, are permanent, invulnerable, eternal. And in Becker's view, some of the personal and social consequences of this are disastrous.


That's just a summary written by someone else: http://ernestbecker.org/lecture-texts/the-denial-of-death-and-the-practice-of-dying.html
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 05:40 am
I would say that Becker has "overthought" the matter. My experience of history and culture is that there are no "one size fits all" explanations for human behavior.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 08:17 am
There almost certainly is NO one size fits all explanation of human experience or behavior...

...and...the people who see a permanence to self...MAY BE CORRECT.

Becker seems to discount that possibility in order to make a guess about human behavior...that he presents as more than a guess.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 09:24 am
Therefore we should discount anyone and everyone's contributions as equally useless. Nice. Tough to construct a non-solipsistic heuristic that way, though.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 09:31 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I would say that Becker has "overthought" the matter. My experience of history and culture is that there are no "one size fits all" explanations for human behavior.


So your experience of history and culture has given you a "one size fits all" answer that there is no "one size fits all" answer? I think I see where you're coming from, but I think you might work on your statement a bit so that it's not so obviously self-contradictory. You're giving an example of something that you claim doesn't exist. Wink
fresco
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 09:55 am
@FBM,
To be fair, I think both you and Set appear to be confusing sociological and psychological levels of discourse. Becker's generalization describes sociological trends and forces which might manifest as specific fears in particular individuals, but whether "conscious" or not, they may be significantly embedded in the transmitted culture and language of group practices. Becker is working at a level equivalent to trying to explain why, say, the suicide rate might be statistically high in Scandinavia, or why "supply and demand" is a useful concept in economics. The experience of any particular individual, or his behavior, is just a statistic which contributes to general trends. The anthropomorphization of historical narrative in terms of psychological "motives" of individuals merely underscores the confusion of levels.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 10:13 am
@FBM,
Now you're just playing a word game. I'm just denying that there would be a single cause for all culture. Calling that a "one size fits all" description is not reasonable. I acknowledge, after re-reading the summary, that Becker is not saying that his fear of death thesis explains all culture.
0 Replies
 
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 03:15 pm
@Smileyrius,
He who calls himself a fool, is a fool.

He who plays the fool, is not a fool, for he was not a fool before he played the fool.

The wise look like this: Self/Something Else

The unwise look like this: (Something(Self)Else)
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 03:19 pm
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/1/vomit.gif
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 04:32 pm
@One Eyed Mind,
It is oft more advantageous to be the wise fool, than the foolish wise man.
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 04:38 pm
@Smileyrius,
What makes one a fool?

Has it ever occurred to you that the entire concept of "being a fool" is in relation to genuine fools? Wise men only say this because they don't know how to express their knowledge's state/position without upsetting the children.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 04:48 pm
@One Eyed Mind,
A fool is oft the perspective driven charge of the man that deems his self wise.

What makes one wise?
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 04:51 pm
@Smileyrius,
It's according to the relation points.

He who conquers the unknown with confidence and precision is wise.

He who concedes to the unknown with negligence and regression is a fool.

A man that's wise cannot be "a fool", as per Self/Something Else. They can have a foolish idea or a foolish something, but they cannot be "a fool", for the wise do not live in "character" - they live in principle. There's no "I" - only "Information".
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 05:33 pm
@One Eyed Mind,
a man that is wise in his own eyes may well find his self a fool in the eyes of others.

Wisdom is born of perspective alone.
One Eyed Mind
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2014 05:56 pm
@Smileyrius,
Please, you speak on personal level - I speak on universal level. I am beyond the stupid "we are limited to our 5 senses" ignorance.
 

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