22
   

Why do we deliberately fool ourselves?

 
 
Felasco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 08:37 am
@coincidence,
Quote:
Why do apparently intelligent people (on paper at least) believe in things that they don't have the slightest shred of evidence for?


Please prove that something as small as human reason is qualified to make meaningful credible statements about the most fundamental nature of all reality (the scope of God claims).

Most atheists believe human reason is so qualified, without any proof at all. They typically don't even realize that such proof is required, and take the qualifications of human reason to meaningfully address any and all questions no matter how large as an obvious given.

Once all this is pointed out to them, they typically ignore it and go right on believing something they have no proof of, because they want to believe in something.

If you really wish to understand religious people, the place to start is probably with understanding yourself.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 10:29 am
@Felasco,
No. Atheists depend on what is observable and can be proven. Religion is based solely on faith, and man have created thousands of gods around the world by country and culture. Atheists trust science to inform us about our existence on this planet. We are a relatively new life form that evolved from primates. There are evidence for this. http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence. Until something better comes around, we'll continue to question what is not observable and repeatable. The human animal was able to progress as we have, because of our brain size, and our ability to use our hands. This was a good time in human life to be living, because of our advances in technology and science. It was not that long ago that the auto was created and made, and during a short period of time, man has been able to fly to the moon, and send modules to mars. It was the worst of times with the world wars, and the best of times in the advance in science and industry.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 03:58 pm
@Felasco,
Quote:
Please prove that something as small as human reason is qualified to make meaningful credible statements about the most fundamental nature of all reality (the scope of God claims).
By your reasoning, the human brain isn't equipped to determine whether or not God exists - neither for, nor against.

To rephrase your statement:

Quote:
Please prove that something as small as human reason is qualified to make meaningful credible statements about the most fundamental nature of all reality (whether God exists or not).
Sturgis
 
  4  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 04:04 pm
As soon as an atheist can prove to me that there is no being/entity greater than humans, let me know.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 04:10 pm
@Sturgis,
Even most religious philosophers understand that you can't prove the non-existence of a thing that doesn't exist (removing from the debate whether or not God exists - this sentiment holds true for anything that doesn't exist)

That was why the U.S. asked Iraq to prove it didn't have WOMD a week before the U.S. attacked - they knew Iraq couldn't do it.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 04:32 pm
@Sturgis,
Sturgis wrote:

As soon as an atheist can prove to me that there is no being/entity greater than humans, let me know.


That's like saying prove there is no santa clause.

Or prove the world wasn't made by universe creating pixies.

Sorry, you've got it backwards.

Prove to me there isn't a monster in my closet.
Well, do you see one?
It's an invisible monster.
Well then, can you feel it?
It's made out of something you can't feel.
Then how do you know it's there?
I just know there is.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 04:48 pm
@chai2,
Hah, when I read Sturgis' comments, I immediately thought of a thing existing in Altertnate Universes (and no one can prove Alternate Universes don't exist).

Then I had the thought that God and Angels (if you were Christian) obviously exist in an alternate Universe - once you start describing them as 'here, but on a different plane' you've just described an Alternate type of Universe. I've little doubt that if you played it all out - the more you describe it (the 'plane' in which heaven exists), the more it will sound like a true alternate Universe. So Christians already believe in alternate Universes.

And if a thing doesn't exist on this 'plane' - how on earth does anyone prove it doesn't exist on the other plane?

It's impossible to prove the non-existence of thing.
0 Replies
 
Felasco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 05:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Atheists depend on what is observable and can be proven.


Ok, so please prove that human reason is qualified to make meaningful statements about the most fundamental nature of all reality (scope of God claims), an arena we can't even define in the most basic manner (size, shape etc)

Human reason is the very poorly implemented ability of a single species on one little planet in one of billions of galaxies. It's tiny beyond description. God claims address the very largest of questions, the most fundamental nature of everything everywhere.

If a theist can't prove the qualifications of their holy book to address the very largest of questions, they are a person of faith. Atheists face the very same burden, and just like the theists, they are unable to meet it.

The supposed huge divide between theists and atheists is just another form of human fantasy.

Felasco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 05:07 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
By your reasoning, the human brain isn't equipped to determine whether or not God exists - neither for, nor against.


Yes, and the question itself reveals why this is so.

For centuries everyone involved in the God debate has asked if God exists, and assumed without questioning that there are only two possible answers, existence or non-existence.

If we examine reality (a valid atheist principle) we see that the overwhelming vast majority of reality is space, and that space does not fit tidily in to either the existence or non-existence category.

And nobody cares, so the debate goes endlessly on, each side chanting it's memorized dogmas over and over again.

The God debate is a fun parlor game. After that, we would be wise not to take it too seriously, and not take ourselves too seriously either.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 05:18 pm
@Felasco,
Quote:
...so please prove that human reason is qualified to make meaningful statements about the most fundamental nature of all reality (scope of God claims), an arena we can't even define in the most basic manner (size, shape etc)
I never claimed "human reason is qualified to make meaningful statements." I said, humans are subjective beings with varied beliefs about our reality. It has nothing to do with intelligence; it has to do with the individual's subjective perceptions of what we believe is our reality. I try to base my beliefs about our reality on what science and scientists tell us, and not on any religious book or teachings, but rather on scientific findings and philosophy. A good example is the age of our planet. According to the Bible, our planet is around 7,000 years old, but scientists claim it's closer to 4.5 billion years old. https://www.space.com/24854-how-old-is-earth.html. I trust the 4.5 billions years over the 7,000 years. I do not believe the story about Adam and Eve, but rather that humans evolved from primates. http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence All my siblings are christians, so I understand your belief system. My perceptions about religion and reality happens to be different. I also believe that religion is an accident of birth; most children follow the religion of their parents. Why should one be the only "true" religion? Millions of humans believe in over 1,000 established religions. Atheism is also a choice.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jul, 2019 05:23 pm
@Felasco,
You have an unusual position. If I understand it right, it is similar to mine, though we don't frame it in quite the same manner.
0 Replies
 
Felasco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 04:21 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I try to base my beliefs about our reality on what science and scientists tell us


Yes, because you believe as a matter of faith that science is qualified to make credible statements about the very largest of topics, such as are addressed by God claims.

Science is clearly qualified to speak to very many topics, but that does not automatically equal it being qualified to speak to any and all topics.

Holy books have brought comfort and meaning to billions of people over thousands of years, but that doesn't automatically equal holy books being qualified to make credible statements on the very largest of topics.

A proven ability in one arena does not automatically equal a proven ability in all arenas.

Yes, atheism is an option. Everyone should feel free to choose it. And if they want to pretend they are doing reason, ok, go for it. This is what most religious people do as well. They want to believe something, so they believe it, and by doing so they get some sense of knowing what's going on, which brings them comfort and stability. Atheists are surely entitled to do the same thing.

But the whole process on both sides is built upon fantasy knowing.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 03:04 pm
@Felasco,
Quote:
Science is clearly qualified to speak to very many topics, but that does not automatically equal it being qualified to speak to any and all topics.
I never claimed that science is qualified to speak on all topics. However, science is the best we have to understanding our environment. Religion and politics are topics that are unrelated to science, but it can answer many questions about truth, facts, right and wrong. http://www.factandmyth.com/republican-party-racism/republican-tea-party-racism Donald Trump is the leader of the Republican Party, and he has a history of racism and pathological lying. Trump's history of racism: https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racist-racism-history Trump's history of lying: https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 03:36 pm
@Felasco,
Quote:
Yes, atheism is an option. Everyone should feel free to choose it. And if they want to pretend they are doing reason, ok, go for it.
As a matter of fact, it is about "reason." The christian bible is only 2,000 years old, but humans have walked this earth for some 200,000 years. From the beginning of human evolution, man have created thousands of gods. What that tells me is that man is prone to believe in gods. That's fine; I can't negate the fact that the US is a christian nation, and most believe in their god. According to the Bible, planet earth is around 7,000 years old. Contemporary scientists tell us that this planet is over 4.5 billion years old. I trust the claim by scientists. Everyone else is free to believe what they wish. As a matter of fact, all my siblings are christians.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 03:39 pm
@Felasco,
Quote:
Yes, atheism is an option. Everyone should feel free to choose it. And if they want to pretend they are doing reason, ok, go for it.
As a matter of fact, it is about "reason." The christian bible is only 2,000 years old, but humans have walked this earth for some 200,000 years. From the beginning of human evolution, man have created thousands of gods. What that tells me is that man is prone to believe in gods. That's fine; I can't negate the fact that the US is a christian nation, and most believe in their god. According to the Bible, planet earth is around 7,000 years old. Contemporary scientists tell us that this planet is over 4.5 billion years old. I trust the claim by scientists. Everyone else is free to believe what they wish. As a matter of fact, all my siblings are christians. You wrote,
Quote:
But the whole process on both sides is built upon fantasy knowing.
FYI, science is not fantasy.
Quote:
sci·ence
/ˈsīəns/
noun
1.
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment:
"the world of science and technology"
It's the best us humans have in terms of understanding our physical and natural world.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jul, 2019 03:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
https://www.britannica.com/list/11-egyptian-gods-and-goddesses
0 Replies
 
Felasco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 05:22 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
However, science is the best we have to understanding our environment.


Best does not automatically equal qualified for any task.

The Bible is the best selling book in the history of Western civilization. Does that automatically equal it being qualified for any task?

The Bible has provided meaning and comfort to billions of people over thousands of years. Does that automatically equal it being qualified for any task?

In the unlikely event you wish to understand how reason works, just apply the very same challenge you reasonably apply to holy books to your own chosen authority, and it will quickly become obvious that you can't prove that reason and science are capable of the job you are assigning them in the particular case of God claims.

This doesn't mean theists win and you lose. It means everybody involved is doing the same thing, coming to whatever conclusion they wish to come to through a process of faith.

This is not necessarily wrong. You seem to be getting a lot of satisfaction from your beliefs, and as far as I know you're not hurting anybody, so there's no problem here best I can tell.

That is, unless you wish to be a person of reason.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 10:13 am
@Felasco,
Quote:
Best does not automatically equal qualified for any task.
Who said it does? But, that's the best us humans have. Humans are subjective beings with different beliefs and concepts about what our life is all about. That's the reason why there are competing human organizations such as we find in religion and politics. It has nothing to do with what we call "intelligence." It's about perception of the individual, and what many call "our reality." The kind of government of a country has much to do with freedoms and restrictions.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 10:13 am
@Felasco,
Quote:
Best does not automatically equal qualified for any task.
Who said it does? But, that's the best us humans have. Humans are subjective beings with different beliefs and concepts about what our life is all about. That's the reason why there are competing human organizations such as we find in religion and politics. It has nothing to do with what we call "intelligence." It's about perception of the individual, and what many call "our reality." The kind of government of a country has much to do with individual freedoms and restrictions.
Felasco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jul, 2019 01:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
But, that's the best us humans have.


Irrelevant. Saying reason is the best we have over and over again will not prove it is qualified to address issues the scale of God claims.
 

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