Understanding existentialism

@outofthecave,

In becoming more rational, Cave, he'd realize just how irrational in whatever camp he finds himself

0 Replies

@dalehileman,

I wrote:

Within this lies one of the central issues of the universe. Do you see it?

dalehileman wrote:

We think ourselves free Neo but we are victims of cause and effect

Yet our entire legal system presupposes free will. Would you honestly think yourself a puppet?

BTW, IMO, the central issue of the universe God's sovereignty. (Sorry for the acronym salad Very Happy

)

1 Reply

@Herald,

A few things:
You talk about the massage of the Bible, ethernal life, etc. I assume you are not a native speaker of English.
You speak of "Chillan Balan ... and also the Octopus Paul". I do not assign these or other ancient or esoteric works, Book of the Dead, Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. any value in the search for truth. You will have to prove them to me. That won't be easy.
The message of the Bible is that God will soon restore mankind and the planet he created to his original purpose. We don't have a choice in that other than to act in harmony with it . . . . . or not.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Quote:

Yet our entire legal system presupposes free will.

Since nothing is entirely anything while everything is partly something else, Neo, determinism aside we're all partly puppet, some of us more, some less

Quote:

Would you honestly think yourself a puppet?

I've often wondered. For instance I was born Illinois 1930 of German stock.
With but the slightest change in circumstance what if I had been born in Deutschland, would I have become a Hitler Youth heiling Hitler and hating the Jew

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

You talk about the massage of the Bible, ethernal life, etc. I assume you are not a native speaker of English.

To be read 'the message' - sorry.

neologist wrote:

You speak of "Chillan Balan ... and also the Octopus Paul". I do not assign these or other ancient or esoteric works, Book of the Dead, Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. any value in the search for truth.

     You may not, but they have truth value ... as phenomenology. I do not engage to comment Chillan Balan (notwithstanding that the morphology of the skull is not entirely to be neglected ... as a DNA source for the 'evolution' theory - if the Evolution exists and is happening).
     You opened the theme with the prophecies - there is no way to close it without clarifying the things to the end, moreover that the Octopus Paul was our 'contemporary'. The idea is that these things with manipulating the society by means of various prophecies work and what is more important - any brainless creature, able to distinguish the red color from the blue one (like the octopus) can 'make' predictions with rate of fulfillment exceeding 85% (i.e 85:15 - where the math expectancy for predicting the random events of the Championship is absolutely in reverse - around 5:95 of not guessing the event sequence - the results of the football matches).
     The prophecies in the Bible are hardly part of the message of the Bible - except for the event itself - the coming of Jesus, which is also disputable - whether it is a result of fulfillment of a prophecy or not.

neologist wrote:

You will have to prove them to me. That won't be easy.

I don't have the slightest intention to prove anything - everything in connection with the Octopus Paul is documented on video - for those who are interested. All one has to do is to request the original video filming from DW-TV, if wishes to check the results of the math. I may help you with starting the math: The FIFA World Cup Championship finals start with 32 teams divided into 8 groups of 4 - a classical end-spiel structure for a tournament. After the first round remain 16, after the second - 8, semi-finals - 4, finals - 2 teams and in the end a world champion is pronounced. You have to calculate all possible matches and all possible outcomes ... and what is to probability to 'guess' 85% of the matches if you rely on random forecasts, rather than 'on predictions' that will manipulate the mob.

neologist wrote:

The message of the Bible is that God will soon restore mankind and the planet he created to his original purpose. We don't have a choice in that other than to act in harmony with it . . . . . or not.

IMO the message of the Bible is not that. The message is that if we continue doing as we are doing right now we will turn the planet into Hell ... sooner than expected, and the money changers and the usurers will become in charge of this ... as it is actually happening.

1 Reply

@Herald,

neologist wrote:

The message of the Bible is that God will soon restore mankind and the planet he created to his original purpose. We don't have a choice in that other than to act in harmony with it . . . . . or not.

Herald wrote:

IMO the message of the Bible is not that. The message is that if we continue doing as we are doing right now we will turn the planet into Hell ... sooner than expected, and the money changers and the usurers will become in charge of this ... as it is actually happening.

My assertion that the message of the Bible is that Jehovah's purpose for humanity has not changed:

Quote:

For this is what Jehovah says, The Creator of the heavens, the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited. . . .(Isaiah 45:18)

Now show me yours. . . And define 'hell' while you're at it.

2 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Now show me yours. . . And define 'hell' while you're at it.

I hardly will need any messages of the Bible to have the math that we are going to Hell ... and hardly anything could save us.

1 Reply

Quote:

Dalehileman said: I was born Illinois 1930 of German stock.
With but the slightest change in circumstance what if I had been born in Deutschland, would I have become a Hitler Youth heiling Hitler and hating the Jew

Perhaps, perhaps not.. Wink

Wonder what happened to this kid-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Son-father-nazi-b_zpsd938d845.jpg~original

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

For this is what Jehovah says,
Quote:
The Creator of the heavens, the true God, The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it, Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited. . . .(Isaiah 45:18)
Now show me yours. . . And define 'hell' while you're at it.

     1. There is no timestamp (to the quoted statement), so you cannot tell onto which moment the statement has to be considered as valid.
     2. Hell is when the wind breaks down a tree and that tree falls on a car ... or damages beyond repairing the roof of a house. Hell is when the flood carries away the TV set, and the computer ... jointly with the Hotel. Do you want more examples ... for this is just the beginning?
     3. In the beginning (30 years ago) we were missing 1-2 ppm of CO2 per year - the last few years we are missing more than 15-20 ppm, which means that God is not only unable to fix the damages to the planet we are making, but most probably he is out of range ... or is indifferent to our self-destruction based on greed and stupidity.
      If you still need a definition of Hell, here is an example. Def.: Hell is any case scenario in which the environment becomes unfit to retain the biosphere any more, the conditions under which any place becomes unfit for habitation, or the survival on that place would require unjustifiably huge efforts ... that will be increasing with the time.

1 Reply

@Herald,

neologist wrote:

Now show me yours. . . And define 'hell' while you're at it.

Herald wrote:

I hardly will need any messages of the Bible to have the math that we are going to Hell ... and hardly anything could save us.

We are not only not on the same page. We are not in the same library.

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@Herald,

Herald wrote:

.... There is no timestamp (to the quoted statement), so you cannot tell onto which moment the statement has to be considered as valid.
2. Hell is when the wind breaks down a tree and that tree falls on a car ... or damages beyond repairing the roof of a house. Hell is when the flood carries away the TV set, and the computer ... jointly with the Hotel. Do you want more examples ... for this is just the beginning?
3. In the beginning (30 years ago) we were missing 1-2 ppm of CO2 per year - the last few years we are missing more than 15-20 ppm, which means that God is not only unable to fix the damages to the planet we are making, but most probably he is out of range ... or is indifferent to our self-destruction based on greed and stupidity.
If you still need a definition of Hell, here is an example. Def.: Hell is any case scenario in which the environment becomes unfit to retain the biosphere any more, the conditions under which any place becomes unfit for habitation, or the survival on that place would require unjustifiably huge efforts ... that will be increasing with the time.

What you have defined is not 'hell'. You have described tragedy, affliction, pandemonium, anarchy, or any state of misfortune. Hell, in the strictest sense, is a translation of the Hebrew 'sheol', or grave, a place of unconsciousness. Hell, to some in our modern world, refers to a place of eternal torture. But it is notable to consider that, when the King James Translation appeared, if you had told someone to "go to hell", they would have gone into their root cellar. The similarity between the words 'hell' and 'hole' is no coincidence. None of this even remotely resembles the confusion in your post.

1 Reply

Whatever shape or form "hell" takes, it can't be a nice place.
Jesus said the place where he and God are is "heaven" or "paradise", so when Christians die it's reasonable to assume that our souls will automatically fly to God and Jesus because we "locked onto" them during our lifetime and want to be with them.
But when an atheist or non-christian dies, their soul will have no place to go because they've never been locked onto God and Jesus.
In the military, if a guided missile loses its lock and veers off into nowhere, they say its "gone stupid" which is a good analogy for atheist/nonchristian souls.. Wink

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

However you or I may define 'hell', it does not seem to bear much resemblance to the words of Herald. I'd like to see more explanation of whatever he means.

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

What you have defined is not 'hell'. You have described tragedy, affliction, pandemonium, anarchy, or any state of misfortune.

Yes, when we (the human species) get wiped out from the Earth it will be tragedy, anarchy and state of misfortune. BTW the concept of Hell comes from the Ancient Egypt, much before the Hebrew interpretation.

neologist wrote:

Hell, to some in our modern world, refers to a place of eternal torture.

Can you name some torture that is outperforming the torture of the inability to breathe in the environment you are living?

neologist wrote:

None of this even remotely resembles the confusion in your post.

... and you don't have even the foggiest idea where exactly that Hell, you know so much of, actually is (in the physical world); you don't have any evidences that the soul 'continues to live' after death ... not to speak that you have no idea what the soul actually is, etc.

1 Reply

@Herald,

Herald wrote:

... and you don't have even the foggiest idea where exactly that Hell, you know so much of, actually is (in the physical world); you don't have any evidences that the soul 'continues to live' after death ... not to speak that you have no idea what the soul actually is, etc.

Well, the soul does not continue to live after death. The Bible makes that clear. The only hope humans have is that God has the power to restore life to those who have died. 'Hell', therefore is a condition, not a place.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

'Hell', therefore is a condition, not a place.

     ... and where are the evidences for the existence of that condition?! If Hell is a condition, the Paradise should also be a condition. What kind of a condition is the Paradise?
     IMV the Heaven and Hell concern the environment in which we are living, here down on the Earth. If we use it wisely we can make it a Paradise. If we devote ourselves to usury and money-changing and oil digging - wow to us ... and the immortality concerns the human species as a whole, not a particular person.
     With a distinct person the immortality (through that stories of rebirth) makes no sense. If there are immortal people (which is very suspicious and highly disputable) - there should be immortal animals as well. The animals from the extinct species are not immortal in any case.
     The main suspect for immortality among the animals would be the crocodile - 228 million years history record of survival of the species. The question is: If one of the Ten Commandments is 'Do not kill', why should God make immortal an animal that is a serial killer all its life long ... and moreover a dominant species (in a pool with a crocodile nothing else survives). Why should God make immortal such a monster? Perhaps it is the Devil, in which case the question would be: Why should the Devil make immortal who-/whatever?
     IMO there is something totally wrong with all that interpretations of Heaven, Hell and Immortality, and most probably we are missing some information and some key aspects in the interpretation.

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@outofthecave,

I wonder if someone with everyday language using words in common order suitable to the Average Clod (me), without reference to Webster or OneLook, might define "existentialism"

4 Replies

@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

I wonder if someone with everyday language using words in common order suitable to the Average Clod (me), without reference to Webster or OneLook, might define "existentialism"

Beats me mate, I'm just a mere mortal and haven't a clue, it's one of those words that philosophers throw around like magic spells-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/The_raven_zps16f186f8.jpg~original

1 Reply

Quote:

Neologist said: Well, the soul does not continue to live after death. The Bible makes that clear.

No offence mate but are you reading the Bible or 'The Mary Poppins Handbook'?
Here's a question for you from the lips of Jesus himself, how would you answer him?
"..whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:26)

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Quote:

one of those words that philosophers throw around like magic spells-

I get that very impression Romeo

0 Replies

Understanding existentialism

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