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GMOs, Monsanto, the future of food, and deGrasse Tyson

 
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2014 12:31 am
@farmerman,
What's wrong with 250 miles of range? My Toyota Rav4 (4 cyl)....27/23 mpg) has about 325 miles range.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2014 01:18 am
@Ragman,
How long does it take to fill that guzzler, though. Three hours?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2014 04:52 am
@Ragman,
I suppose that, just local driving, wouldn't pose an inconvenience. I still have this little hybrid Escape that gets me about 400 mi (TOPS with noo using the AC, which, when used , drops the car's range by a whopping 75 mi a tank).
If you wanna take a driving trip or, like me, substitute driving for a plane ride, then a 300 mi range I quite annoying.
ANyway, I ont think the Fisker or the Tesla are really that well engineered , they seem to have reports of major problems generated within high resistance circuits and somewhere in their battery set-ups.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Aug, 2014 06:05 am
@farmerman,
Not sure how bad the Tesla problem is. Is it that unusual or that prevalent? I recall seeing an interview with a company representative (maybe the CEO). The defective adapter involves 29,000 units (and the overheating that ensued because of one defective adapter) caused one car fire to a car Irvine Calif.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/15/automobiles/citing-charging-concerns-tesla-issues-a-recall.html?_r=0

Shockingly, Tesla, was not available. He was gravely ill.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 08:49 am
Something else to consider:
http://althealthworks.com/3455/watch-this-researcher-destroy-neil-degrasse-tysons-gmo-argument-in-less-than-two-minutes/
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 10:26 am
@Lash,
In my experience surfing the web, it is rarely worth following a link that follows an announcement of the form: "Watch <celebrity> sliced and diced, tarred and feathered, stomped into the ground, and then really hurt." This one confirmed my impression.

Tyson's claim is twofold:
  • There is no such thing as an 'authentic' gene. Humans have been changing the genomes of plants for thousands of years, and the cumulative change is enormous.

  • While genetic engineering is a different process than selective breeding, the scientific literature does not bear out the claim that genes modified by genetical engineering produce inherently more dangerous organisms than genes modified by selective breeding
This is what Tyson said, and what his anti-GMO opponents have to refute.

So what counter-arguments does Neil Smith bring to the table? In approximate chronological I noticed the following:
  • An argument from authority: Neil deGrasse Tyson is a physicist, not a geneticist. But if you buy into arguments from authority, which as a rule you shouldn't, you should dismiss Mr. Smith's entire video because he isn't even a scientist (and, to his credit, admits it.)

  • A red herring: Neil Smith cites (without providing a reference) "an overwhelming consensus of FDA scientists" as saying that genetic engineering is a very different process than selective breeding. But this fact is not in contention. Tyson acknowledges this.

  • Another argument from authority: Smith claims that the same consensus of FDA scientists thinks that the different processes lead to different risks. Smith never refers to the only authority that should count in science: repeatable experiments, published in peer-reviewed articles.

  • A conspiracy theory. FDA executives, infiltrated by Big Agrobusiness, froze out all FDA scientists who raised concerns. Whether or not that's true, it's irrelevant as evidence for Mr. Smith's claim.


Mr Smith then refers to a "part 2" video, in which he purports to provide detailed scientific evidence for his case. It starts with a red herring from the first part (genetic engineering is a different process than selective breeding, which Tyson does not dispute). Then he continues with a lot of hypothetical risks, which by his own admission are not backed up by any peer-reviewed research findings.

Are genetically-modified organisms unsafe? Sure they are. So are conventional foodstuffs. Just ask anyone allergic to peanuts. The contention at issue here is that gmo organisms are intrinsically less safe than non-gmo organisms. Mr. Smith has not proven his case that they are.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 05:12 pm
In Mr Smith's attempted refutation and elsewhere on the internet, there appears to be widespread confusion about Mr Tyson's actual position. Here is what I see at the core of it. This is a direct quote from Tyson's Facebook page:

Neil de Grasse Tyson wrote:
I never said GMOs were safer or more dangerous. I implied that if you think GMO-laboratory is **inherently** more dangerous to human life than GMO-agriculture you are simply wrong. They both can be bad for the environment. They both can be less healthy. They both can disrupt the local flora and fauna. But both methods wield an awesome power to improve food in every way that matters to humans: yields, appearance, vitamin content, sweetness, resistance to insects, resistance to weather extremes, and so forth.

As in all new foods, transgenic or otherwise, they should be tested for safety. [how many times do I need to say that?] And they should be tested for their effect on the environment. If the regulatory system is failing at this then it should be modified. And if the tests indicate a risk to the health of some humans and a benefit to others, then this should appear on the labeling. By the way, we already do this for peanuts, to protect people from peanut allergies. But there's no talk of banning them.

Source
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 05:25 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
The modified part we should all already know is about universal. It's the way Monsanto does it that has people worried. First, they try to force everybody to have their products, like a mafia. Second, the insecticide genetically injected is not like old Ogg the caveman selectively breeding wheat. GMOs are illegal in great parts of the world. I personally don't buy their stuff if I can find a choice.
Imagine that, edgar. You and I both taking exception to the proclamations of the world's smartest man. I'd like to believe you and I are even smarter. Amazing, eh? Who wouldda figgured?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 05:26 pm
Tyson also has an initial Facebook post, outlining what he would have said if the original remarks had been a real talk rather than a bunch of off-the-cuff remarks to a foreign-language journalist. It is well worth reading, but doesn't have an URL like the second one, so I copy and paste the whole thing here:

Neil deGrasse Tyson wrote:
*** August 3, 2014 -- Anatomy of a GMO Commentary ****
Ten days ago, this brief clip of me was posted by somebody.

http://bit.ly/Xg0y7R

It contains my brief [2min 20sec] response to a question posed by a French journalist, after a talk I gave on the Universe. He found me at the post-talk book signing table. (Notice the half-dozen ready & willing pens.) The clip went mildly viral (rising through a half million right now) with people weighing in on whether they agree with me or not.

Some comments...

1) The journalist posted the question in French. I don't speak French, so I have no memory of how I figured out that was asking me about GMOs. Actually I do know some French words like Bordeaux, and Bourgogne, and Champagne, etc.

2) Everything I said is factual. So there's nothing to disagree with other than whether you should actually "chill out" as I requested of the viewer in my last two words of the clip.

3) Had I given a full talk on this subject, or if GMOs were the subject of a sit-down interview, then I would have raised many nuanced points, regarding labeling, patenting, agribusiness, monopolies, etc. I've noticed that almost all objections to my comments center on these other issues.

4) I offer my views on these nuanced issues here, if anybody is interested:
a- Patented Food Strains: In a free market capitalist society, which we have all "bought" into here in America, if somebody invents something that has market value, they ought to be able to make as much money as they can selling it, provided they do not infringe the rights of others. I see no reason why food should not be included in this concept.

b- Labeling: Since practically all food has been genetically altered from nature, if you wanted labeling I suppose you could demand it, but then it should be for all such foods. Perhaps there could be two different designations: GMO-Agriculture GMO-Laboratory.

c- Non-perennial Seed Strains: It's surely legal to sell someone seeds that cannot reproduce themselves, requiring that the farmer buy seed stocks every year from the supplier. But when sold to developing country -- one struggling to become self-sufficient -- the practice is surely immoral. Corporations, even when they work within the law, should not be held immune from moral judgement on these matters.

d- Monopolies are generally bad things in a free market. To the extent that the production of GMOs are a monopoly, the government should do all it can to spread the baseline of this industry. (My favorite monopoly joke ever, told by Stephen Wright: "I think it's wrong that the game Monopoly is sold by only one company")

e- Safety: Of course new foods should be tested for health risks, regardless of their origin. That's the job of the Food and Drug Administration (in the USA). Actually, humans have been testing food, even without the FDA ,since the dawn of agriculture. Whenever a berry or other ingested plant killed you, you knew not to serve it to you family.

f- Silk Worms: I partly mangled my comments on this. Put simply, commercial Silk Worms have been genetically modified by centuries of silk trade, such that they cannot survive in the wild. Silk Worms currently exist only to serve the textile industry. Just as Milk Cows are bred with the sole purpose of providing milk to humans. There are no herds of wild Milk Cows terrorizing the countryside.

5) If your objection to GMOs is the morality of selling non-prerennial seed stocks, then focus on that. If your objection to GMOs is the monopolistic conduct of agribusiness, then focus on that. But to paint the entire concept of GMO with these particular issues is to blind yourself to the underlying truth of what humans have been doing -- and will continue to do -- to nature so that it best serves our survival. That's what all organisms do when they can, or would do, if they could. Those that didn't, have gone extinct extinct.

In life, be cautious of how broad is the brush with which you paint the views of those you don't agree with.

Respectfully Submitted
-NDTyson
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 05:30 pm
@neologist,
There's scientists and there's scientists, just like everybody else. I agree that not everything Monsanto pushes need be considered objectionable, but they don't want us to have real choices, to decide for ourselves.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 05:32 pm
@edgarblythe,
Even smart people have issues
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 05:38 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The sad part is that people get obsessed about Monsanto and GMOs, and throw the baby out with the bath water. A fine example of this is golden rice (clickity-click!):

One thing that bemuses me is the big deal anti-GMO people make about the selling of sterile crops to farmers. If I remember correctly, you once told me in real life that in your days in Urbana IL, it was commonplace for seed vendors to sell hubrid seeds. GMO-ness is neither sufficient nor necessary for having a plant that can't reproduce. (If it helps, one may think them as the plant equivalent of mules, which also can't have offspring.)
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 06:50 pm
@Thomas,
The crazy thing is that the anti-GMO crowd always tries to raise the specter of "killer genes" getting loose into the environment--from sterile plants. Fanatics don't need to steenking logic!
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 08:02 pm
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_27622.cfm

Who better to speak the truth about the risks posed by genetically modified (GM) foods than Thierry Vrain, a former research scientist for Agriculture Canada? It was Vrain's job to address public groups and reassure them that GM crops and food were safe, a task he did with considerable knowledge and passion.

But Vrain, who once touted GM crops as a technological advancement indicative of sound science and progress, has since started to acknowledge the steady flow of research coming from prestigious labs and published in high-impact journals; research showing that there is significant reason for concern about GM crops - and he has now changed his position.

Former Pro-GMO Scientist Cites GM Food Safety Concerns

Vrain cites the concerning fact that it is studies done by Monsanto and other biotech companies that claim GM crops have no impact on the environment and are safe to eat. But federal departments in charge of food safety in the US and Canada have not conducted tests to affirm this alleged "safety."

Vrain writes:

"There are no long-term feeding studies performed in these countries [US and Canada] to demonstrate the claims that engineered corn and soya are safe. All we have are scientific studies out of Europe and Russia, showing that rats fed engineered food die prematurely.

These studies show that proteins produced by engineered plants are different than what they should be. Inserting a gene in a genome using this technology can and does result in damaged proteins. The scientific literature is full of studies showing that engineered corn and soya contain toxic or allergenic proteins.

I refute the claims of the biotechnology companies that their engineered crops yield more, that they require less pesticide applications, that they have no impact on the environment and of course that they are safe to eat."

"The Whole Paradigm of Genetic Engineering Technology is Based on a Misunderstanding"

This misunderstanding is the "one gene, one protein" hypothesis from 70 years ago, which stated that each gene codes for a single protein. However, the Human Genome project completed in 2002 failed dramatically to identify one gene for every one protein in the human body, forcing researchers to look to epigenetic factors -- namely, "factors beyond the control of the gene" - to explain how organisms are formed, and how they work.

>>> Read the Full Article
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 10:01 pm
@edgarblythe,
I figure since I won't give the dogs anything with soy or corn in it, it's probably best to avoid those two products as much as possible myself. Soy is a very occasional treat, and I read those freaking labels carefully. Damn stuff is everywhere.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  3  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 10:26 pm
@Lash,
The good version of the future of food starts to look more and more like aquaponics. You find liquid totes (the thing you make fish tanks out of) by searching craigslist for "food grade 275 gallon"
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  4  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 10:27 pm
@Lash,
I view the question of how much logical sense Monsanto's scheme makes as largely irrelevant, I do not like the idea of anybody having a world monopoly on food.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  2  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2014 10:31 pm
For an idea of wtf I'm talking about here, get on youtube and search on "ibc aquaponics".....
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 07:08 pm
@farmerman,
Are you an "organic farmer" FM?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2014 12:01 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I am NOT n organic farmer. Not that Im ginst it, Im jut too much infused with modern technology to be wasting time culturing huge piles of compost.
I do use some manures but I mostly do no till farming . I hve 40 ace rea that I use to grow corn and rye where I use manure. All the rest I use chemical fertilizer, Roundup, and I plant open pollinated stuff, or hybrids that are off patent . When I tried Bt GMO seed it was NOT worth the premium price per acre. (600$ v 50$ jut s a seed differential for tuff like lfalfa). I find that old time pesticides like Gramaxone work quite well.

I lso have had a rough time marketing market lambs that were finished with GMO alfalfas or finish mix. ( Back home We have very active animl "rights" groups that are almost criminal in their activities ).
 

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