All atheists and theists are agnostics?

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Sorry. I can't get down your level of thinking. Play "last word-ism", "bottom line-ism", "is-ism" and "guess-ism", to your heart's content but don't expect your repetitive preaching to be taken seriously.

For you to talk about repetitive preaching, Fresco, is the laugh of the century. You have been preaching the same nonsense for years...the nonsense that you know what the REALITY is...and that it cannot be anything but what you say.

But, you are here trying to impress people who mostly cannot be impressed by your nonsense and your phony intellectualism.

If you really had any real abilities in the philosophy sphere...you would be spending your time in forums devoted to philosophy...rather than one devoted to a dozen or two people endlessly arguing minutia among themselves...and solving sex problems for adolescents that accidentally happen onto the site.

My preaching is that I do not know what the REALITY is...but that whatever it IS...it IS.

Nothing wrong with that...except what you want to pretend is wrong with it so that you can say I am wrong.

You are good for laughs, though, and for that, I thank you.

http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/humour-blague/clown-jonglerie/vil2-joke.gif

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

In response to your last word-ism, I point out that my only attitude expressed about the word "reality" is that like any concept, it is a human social construction whose nuances are context dependent. To argue that "reality" constitutes anything more than that, amounts to a form of "religious faith". Your last word-ism amounts to a desperate whinging that this is not the case, because the acknowledgement of that would make your vested interest in your claim to "agnosticism" somewhat ridiculous.
You are trapped in your own layman's language about "knowledge" and "reality" the analysis of which, under the technical headings of "epistemology" and "ontology", occupies thousands of papers of by deeper thinkers than either you or I.
So go on, let's have yet another last word from Frank the layman who dismisses that literature. (You've not "used appeals to authority" or accusation of ad hominems by me, yet ! )

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

In response to your last word-ism, I point out that my only attitude expressed about the word "reality" is that like any concept, it is a human social construction whose nuances are context dependent. To argue that "reality" constitutes anything more than that, amounts to a form of "religious faith". Your last word-ism amounts to a desperate whinging that this is not the case, because the acknowledgement of that would make your vested interest in your claim to "agnosticism" somewhat ridiculous.
You are trapped in your own layman's language about "knowledge" and "reality" the analysis of which, under the technical headings of "epistemology" and "ontology", occupies thousands of papers of by deeper thinkers than either you or I.
So go on, let's have yet another last word from Frank the layman who dismisses that literature. (You've not "used appeals to authority" or accusation of ad hominems by me, yet ! )

Yeah...sure.

Whatever is going on here...IS what IS. It IS the REALITY.

You want to play games with words to support your KNOWLEDGE that we humans cannot convey a concept like "whatever actually IS...IS" so that you can continue to be "right" and I will be "wrong."

The fact that you actually engage me in argument (for over a decade now), considering your low opinion of my intellect and communications abilities, says worlds about what is going on here, Fresco.

The fact that I acknowledge you as more intelligent and more learned in the area being discussed...says a great deal about why I am here. The fact that I disagree with much of what you pontificate, is simply part of the interplay.

Do what you have to do...play what game you have to play. You will be here for me when I want you...of that I am confident. In my opinion, you do not have the will-power to resist coming back for more.

As I said earlier:

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Whatever is going on here...IS what IS. It IS the REALITY.

Correct. It's nothing more than last "word-ism" from both of us.

Quote:

"whatever actually IS...IS"

Is not "wrong" It is merely a vacuous statement from the position of static naive realism which has faith in an undefinable " absolute" or a desire for closure of an infinite regress.

Quote:

you do not have the will-power to resist coming back for more

.
Indeed. My self imposed "duty" to the forum to suggest expert philosophical opinion as an alternative to lay assumptions will always tend to attract me. The fact that you delight in being the "arch-layman" implies a self perpetuating situation.

Your turn ....

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
Whatever is going on here...IS what IS. It IS the REALITY.

Correct. It's nothing more than last "word-ism" from both of us.

I agree that it is correct. I disagree that it is nothing more than last word-ism...however you interpret that.

Actually grokking "whatever IS...IS"...

...is essential to any discussions of what actually IS. Mostly, one will not get any further than "whatever IS...IS." It is almost certain that anything additional falls into the realm of pure guesswork. (I'll consider arguments against that notion.)

Nothing wrong with guesswork. It can even be useful...so long as it everyone recognizes and acknowledges it as guesswork.

Quote:

Quote:
"whatever actually IS...IS"

Is not "wrong" It is merely a vacuous statement from the position of static naive realism which has faith in an undefinable " absolute" or a desire for closure of an infinite regress.

Respectfully, it is not vacuous, Fresco...and if any of the "learned beyond us" individuals have convinced you it is...they have done you a disservice.

Ultimately, there has to be an objective REALITY...no matter what.

Even if it could be stated with certainty "there is no objective reality"...that would be the objective REALITY.

And to dismiss any of this as vacuous because of the suspicion that it leads to an infinite regression is capitulation to (what I earlier referred to as) one of your pontifications.

Let it go, Fresco. Whatever IS...IS. That is the objective REALITY...no matter what IS.

Quote:

Quote:
you do not have the will-power to resist coming back for more
.
Indeed. My self imposed "duty" to the forum to suggest expert philosophical opinion as an alternative to lay assumptions will always tend to attract me. The fact that you delight in being the "arch-layman" implies a self perpetuating situation.

It has the possibility of being a self perpetuating situation...a merry-go-round. It doesn't have to be.

But only if you suppose that "expert philosophical opinion" by its very nature MUST RULE over casual, arch-layman observations.

Someone once invented the wheel, Fresco. It may not have been a technician at all...but just some guy who stumbled on it. Perhaps the laziest, dumbest guy in the cave.

Your need to treat what I am suggesting here as inferior to what you have obtained from "expert philosophical opinion"...truly is nothing more than an appeal to authority in our discussions.

I am willing to discuss anything with anyone...so long as they are here. Bring a dead guy into the discussion...or someone who would not deign to argue in A2K...and I will be dismissive.

Quote:

Your turn ....

Done.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Ultimately, there has to be an objective REALITY...no matter what.

That's the vacuous tautological religious mantra of a naive realist, but you dare not admit it!

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
Ultimately, there has to be an objective REALITY...no matter what.

That's the vacuous tautological religious mantra of a naive realist, but you dare not admit it!

Why on Earth would I "dare not admit" it?

Why do you even use the word "admit" rather than "acknowledge" in that sentence?

You have arbitrarily decided that the naive realists have to be wrong...and that you have to be right.

You are not arriving at where you are logically...you are simply placing yourself there...and then picking and choosing what you will use to justify it.

You have to live with yourself, Fresco...and these embarrassing rationalizations of yours are hard to witness.

Whatever IS...IS. And whatever IS...is the REALITY. It is an objective REALITY...there is no way it can be anything but.

Continue to delude yourself if you must...and continue to pretend you post here under some self-imposed responsibility to set straight the two dozen people who frequent this forum.

I will continue to find humor in it.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

So there!

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Why on Earth would I "dare not admit" it?

Because if you really thought about it you are no different from those many believers who call that hypothetical "ultimate reality" GOD !
Bye bye Frank "the agnostic" !

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
Why on Earth would I "dare not admit" it?

Because if you really thought about it you are no different from those many believers who call that hypothetical "ultimate reality" GOD !
Bye bye Frank "the agnostic" !

I am VERY different from them...and if you were not blinding yourself so, you would be able to acknowledge that.

I am not saying they are right...I am saying there is the possibility they are right.

You seem unable to understand that kind of thinking...that more than one possibility about these kinds of things can exist. You want to go directly to the answer to the question about what IS...and answer it as though your guess is the only reasonable one. In fact, you go further. You suggest it is THE answer.

You stay here in A2K rather than in a philosophy forum, because you think you can bully your way in these kinds of discussions.

You've got a long trip ahead of you to bully me, Fresco.

Go on thinking the naive realists are coming from a position that has to be acknowledge using the word "admit." It is a joke...so it has humor value.

QUESTIONS:

Are you saying that one must be a naive realist to suppose there has to be an objective REALITY?

Are you saying there is no objective REALITY?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Don't kid yourself Frank. You are no different to any other believer in absolutes, irrespective of the use put by believers for such concepts. All absolutist concepts are epistemologically equivalent to adopting a "God's eye view" in so far that they imply the possibility of transcendence from the limitations of our need directed perceptual systems. Since Kant, and Godel, only philosophical simpletons would take such a notion seriously.
I have no intention of going into a lengthy analysis of the "objectivity-subjectivity" dichotomy in order for it to fall on your deaf ears. Suffice to say, like all dichotomies, it is "functionally useful" in certain contexts but not others, such as ontological inquiries which may question the very status of dichotomies.

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Don't kid yourself Frank. You are no different to any other believer in absolutes, irrespective of the use put by believers for such concepts.

Don't you kid yourself, Fresco. You are assuming I am a "believer."

I most assuredly am not.

But I doubt you will be able to concede that.

Quote:

All absolutist concepts are epistemologically equivalent to adopting a "God's eye view" in so far that they imply the possibility of transcendence from the limitations of our need directed perceptual systems. Since Kant, and Godel, only philosophical simpletons would take such a notion seriously.

If you want to try that crap with someone else, Fresco...do it. Fancy words and appeals to authority do work with some people.

They do not with me.

I defy you to create a scenario in which there is no objective REALITY.

Try it, since you are so sure.

Quote:

I have no intention of going into a lengthy analysis of the "objectivity-subjectivity" dichotomy in order for it to fall on your deaf ears. Suffice to say, like all dichotomies, it is "functionally useful" in certain contexts but not others, such as ontological inquiries which may question the very status of dichotomies.

You have this thing which amounts to a religion about REALITY, Fresco...and you have convinced yourself that you KNOW what it is.

You are playing with yourself.

I have the integrity to acknowledge that I do not know what it is...although I realize that whatever it IS...it IS.

You do not go into the philosophy forums because they would realize how superficial your understanding of the basics are. They'd tear you to shreds.

But...stick around here. Comedy relief is always welcome...and you do provide plenty of that.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Ah I see you have once more descended into the tedious babble of denials. denigration of great minds, and self-image damage limitation. If that's the best you can do at last word-ism, one wonders why you bother.

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Ah I see you have once more descended into the tedious babble of denials. denigration of great minds, and self-image damage limitation. If that's the best you can do at last word-ism, one wonders why you bother.

What the hell. I saw you once again descending into the "I can post more complicated post than you" mode...along with the usual fixation with the appeal to authority...

...so I handled it the way it deserved.

You are still here...discussing with me...someone you consider not worthwhile...not a reasonable opponent.

You are a joke...and apparently you cannot recognize that you are.

No problem, Fresco. For years I have reminded you of it...and I will continue to do so.

Over!

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

...and out !

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank do you feel the love in the air? Does it seem to follow you at times? Idea

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Frank do you feel the love in the air? Does it seem to follow you at times?

I feel the love, RL.

I court it. Wink

0 Replies

@BL0CPARTY,

This is not true what so ever. I believe in all mighty knowledge, without its lights out. We all know its good and where to find peace. It's has always been there. Yes you can. Believe baby.

0 Replies

Quote:

BLOCPARTY said: This entire argument hinges on the fact that atheists and theists 'suppose they know the answer to those unanswerable questions.'

Nah mate, Jesus was quite clear that our human minds don't have the horsepower to be able to take it all in-
"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12)
"You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world" (John 8:23)
"I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going" (John 8:14)
"Nobody knows the Father except the Son" (Luke 10:22)

But needless to say, assorted crackpot cults like the mormons and jehovah's witnesses like to think they know it all.. Wink

And to their credit, even some atheists admit they can't be sure-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Dawks-not-sure_zps16357b9a.jpg~original

1 Reply

@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Quote:
BLOCPARTY said: This entire argument hinges on the fact that atheists and theists 'suppose they know the answer to those unanswerable questions.'

Nah mate, Jesus was quite clear that our human minds don't have the horsepower to be able to take it all in-
"You hardly believe me when I tell you earthly things,so how would you believe me if I told you heavenly things?" (John 3:12)
"You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world" (John 8:23)
"I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going" (John 8:14)
"Nobody knows the Father except the Son" (Luke 10:22)

But needless to say, assorted crackpot cults like the mormons and jehovah's witnesses like to think they know it all..

And to their credit, even some atheists admit they can't be sure-

But you are absolutely certain there is a god....so your "Nah mate" is nonsense.

I doubt you can see that.

I'm willing to guess that almost everyone else here can.

0 Replies

All atheists and theists are agnostics?

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