hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 08:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
I will add that I have no hope that this society is ready to listen to calls such as mine to stop with the male bashing, we have not yet become willing to admit the problem so we will not work to solve. We will sometime in the next decade or so, the problem will not self contain itself. At some point we will look around and admit that far too men are exploding and imploding, and deside to look into what is going on just as several decades ago we wondered why we had so many neurotic unhappy women on our hands.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 08:31 pm
@panzade,
Me too.

Obvious on the face of it, but hard to extract from all the meshed syncopated folderol.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 08:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
we have not yet become willing to admit the problem so we will not work to solve.
I have never witnessed THAT problem.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 08:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
I'm a feminist, long time, and I don't male bash. Well, one or two with words, but that's not usual. I like males, love some. The men I loved never minded that I wanted to do stuff as much as they did - we always had no problem with that. I guess I knew really great men; that's a possibility.

You are off on your own construct and keep digging into threads about your take. It gets annoying.
In any case, I think that is irrelevant re this situation - the child had his own takes very early, it seems.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 08:42 pm

I wonder whether the students surrounding Elliot
were aware of his pain in isolation, of his sense of rejection.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 08:46 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I'm a feminist, long time, and I don't male bash. Well, one or two with words, but that's not usual. I like males.

You are off on your own construct and keep digging into threads about your take. It gets annoying.
In any case, I think that is irrelevant re this situation - the child had his own takes very early, it seems.

Do you for instance object when zero tolerance school policies writen most by women with the expectation that all students will act like well behaved little girls punish boys over and over again if they insist on acting like little boys?

This is the atmosphere this male grew up in. It is wrong, it is stupid, and it will lead to disaster.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 08:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Do you for instance object when zero tolerance school policies writen most by women with the expectation that all students will act like well behaved little girls punish boys over and over again if they insist on acting like little boys?

This is the atmosphere this male grew up in.
Will u give us some specific examples of that atmosphere??
That concept is alien to me.

I just remember doing whatever I damn pleased.





David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 08:55 pm
The Men's Rights Activists {MRA) also provide Hawkeye with his rhetoric and anti-feminism views, and his spiel about men being the new oppressed underclass--oppressed by women, of course.

Quote:

Why Elliot Rodger is being linked to the Men's Rights Movement
By Gavia Baker-Whitelaw
May 25, 2014

Elliot Rodger killed six people on Saturday, and strangely, some people seem to sympathize with him. This sympathy isn’t just for his public status as a victim of mental illness, but for the reasons that drove him to open fire on a street full of innocent bystanders.

On Saturday, 22 year old Elliot Rodger stabbed his three roommates before driving through Alta Vista, California, shooting at random passers-by. Already, people are examining the YouTube videos he left behind, where he spoke about his loneliness, virginity, and bitterness toward women. This shooting was a premeditated attack, a day of “retribution” against the college girls who rejected his advances.

“You girls have never been attracted to me,” he said in one video. “I don’t know why you’ve never been attracted to me, but I’ll punish you all for it. It’s an injustice—a crime. I’m the perfect guy, yet you throw yourself at all these obnoxious men instead of me, a supreme gentleman… If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you. You denied me a happy life, and in turn I will deny you a life.”

Feeling cheated by the fact that women refused to have sex with him, he decided to take revenge. And judging by reactions on social media and comments on his YouTube videos, some men appear to understand this.

One comment on his final video reads, “I honestly think that every average looking really nice guy who's watched the hottest girls hook up with cocky creatine loaded frat boys feels a little bit of what he's talking about. He probably was a nice gentleman guy who just got rejected by women into insanity. Especially if he kept at trying to be a nice guy and it never worked.”

Many other comments suggest that the “problem” would have been solved if he just visited a prostitute. On the Reddit forum for PUAhate, an anti pick-up artist community that Rodger used to frequent, one of the top threads is titled, “Will American women become nicer after today’s attempt?” Meanwhile, social media is full of jokes about Rodger being driven to kill as a result of women “friendzoning” him.

These comments all point towards a horrifyingly common belief: that being rejected by women is an understandable motive for murder.

Friendzoning. “Nice guys” and “gentlemen” who loathe the women who choose to date other men. “Incel” or “involuntary celibacy,” a term primarily used by men who feel entitled to sex from women. (For example: “When I hear a woman tell me that I shouldn’t feel bad about having gone without for so long, after all it’s only just sex, I feel like disfiguring her face with a scalpel.”)

It’s this type of rhetoric that quickly led people to link Rodger to the Men’s Rights Movement.

If you haven’t heard of Men’s Rights Activism before, the term may sound relatively innocuous. At face value, it’s umbrella title for people who campaign against anti-male discrimination. A popular example is the campaign for better visitation rights for divorced dads.

However, MRAs are far better known for simply campaigning against feminism, perceiving men to be the new oppressed underclass in modern society. Little to no attention is paid to issues like discrimination against trans men in everyday life, or against young black men in the legal system. Instead, a lot of high-profile Men’s Rights activities are just backlash against feminism’s ongoing struggle for equality between the sexes.

MRAs have campaigned against the criminalization of marital rape, fought for the “freedom” to make rape jokes on Facebook, trolled a college with hundreds of fake rape reports, and driven a feminist blogger into hiding. The Southern Poverty Law Centre tracks the Men’s Rights Movement as a hate group, alongside organizations like the KKK and the Westboro Baptist Church.

On the main subReddit for MRAs, most commenters are quick to distance themselves from Rodger. Essentially, this is a rush toward that old chestnut, “Not All Men.” This time, it’s “Not All MRAs.” Not all MRAs are like Elliot Rodger, obviously. The problem is, Elliot Rodger’s vitriolic rants are indistinguishable from the kind of language associated with many men who believe in the MRA message.

“The bodies of the victims haven't even gone cold and the anti-mrm brigade are already using this tragedy as an excuse to tarnish the entire movement?” writes one MRA, succinctly highlighting the community’s focus on protecting their public image from associations with Rodger.

Rodger’s mental illness is already a popular topic of discussion. As is often the case when an affluent, white-passing young man decides to go on a killing spree, we are treated to a sudden influx of mentions that he was in therapy.

But mental illness doesn’t cause this type of virulent misogynist rhetoric to materialize inside a person’s brain, unaided. And bringing Rodger’s Asperger Syndrome into the conversation can be seen as little more than an insult to everyone else with Asperger’s.

Rodger’s YouTube videos tell a tale of loneliness and rage, expressed in language that was certainly inspired and enabled by Men’s Rights culture. Specifically, the “right” for men to get laid, and the resulting rage when women ignore them.

The concepts of “nice guys” and “friendzoning” are so common that the Nice Guys Of OKCupid blog has inspired dozens of parodies and copycats. The conceit is a catalog of self-professed “old-fashioned gentlemen” or “nice guys” who hate bitches, sluts, and whores, and feel like they’ve been cheated out of female attention thanks to alpha male douchebags getting all the girls. Sound familiar?

Over the next few days, there will be a great deal of debate, both online and in the mainstream media, about whether Rodger was influenced by pick-up artists and men’s rights groups, or whether he was just another example of the archetypal troubled young man.

MRAs will continue to point out that the men’s rights movement does not advocate violence against women. Others will point out the many instances where MRAs have harassed or attacked women. In this battle between opposing armies of armchair psychologists, no useful conclusions will ever be made.

Instead, what we should be doing is looking at the many young men who might well agree with Rodger’s opinions on women. They may not think of themselves as being like him, but they share the same rage and sense of entitlement; “Incels,” men who feel cheated by the inadequacy of pick-up artist tactics, teenage boys who buy into the “friendzone” myth, “nice guys” who despise the women who reject them. Elliot Rodger belonged to all of these groups. And if they sympathize with Rodger’s desire for revenge against women, then they need help. Not the nonspecific mental “help” that people often namecheck when speaking about mass murderers “getting the help they need,” but help to understand that they are not entitled to attention from the opposite sex.

Most of the reactions to Rodger’s YouTube diatribes boil down to “Why didn’t anyone notice that this guy was dangerous?” Well, it’s probably because we’re increasingly used to his violently misogynistic beliefs.

If the police investigated every “nice guy” who complained about involuntary celibacy or posted a video rant about how women are all bitches, then the prison system would be even more over-stretched than it already is.

http://www.dailydot.com/news/elliot-rodger-mens-rights-activists/

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
So that is the heart of your personal argument, what happened at your school?

I might, if I knew more, agree with you on your school.
And I revolt similarly to my high school nuns (I liked my grammar school nuns), has taken me years not to be pissed off, when they were people of their time.

I think you take your own thing to conclusions that not all the rest of us identify with.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:08 pm
@firefly,
I am dumbfounded that the movements described are showing up in all this.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:11 pm
@firefly,
I just skimmed. What a lot of hogswallop, and vice versa re women's ballooning of this.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:27 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I imagine he was bullied by his roommates or other dudes about not getting any tail. I certainly am only imagining that - based on my experience with how dudes make such a point of doing this to each other. But, I believe the biggest reason this happened is because the kid was a sociopath or suffered from some psychiatric disturbance. It's obvious in his words. He hated women. He had a dramatically skewed worldview.

He was handsome in my opinion, and likely had a creepy personality that kept women from being attracted to him. He obviously suffered from substantial self-hatred - at least of his Asian heritage.

Asperger's was taken off the DSM - 4 list of mental illnesses, but it characterized by socially aberrant behavior that very often makes others uncomfortable. I'm unsure if his notable narcissistic behavior reveals some additional mental issue not necessarily connected to Asperger's. There may have been a lot more going on with this kid.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:31 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
They may not think of themselves as being like him, but they share the same rage and sense of entitlement;


I love how wanting to be with women and being torn up when women will have nothing to do with him his being treated as a unjustified sense of entitlement......as if some hugs, conversation and maybe some sex from a female is more than men deserve. Next up we are going to tell men that they have an unjustified sense of entitlement if they want to go to university without being constantly harassed for being a likely undetected rapist.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
No I am not saying that the individuals deserved to be killed, I am saying and did say directly that we the collective deserved this assault.
Odd...the same could then be said of 9-11...and yet it's unlikely that any individual in the twin towers deserved such. Social tragedies are tragedies due to human loss...not the loss of a faceless number. We should never reduce such things to meaningless numbers.

Quote:
I am also saying and did say that the problem will only get worse until and unless we stop repressing men.
This guys mass murder has very little to do with the repression of men...every female has the right to choose her partners - that's not repression, that's choice.

Quote:
Men need to feel good about themselves, men need to have something useful to do, and women need to stop trying to make men into women..
I rather agree...though it's context is misplaced.

Quote:
as you well know because we have talked about it a few times I dont believe in hate crime laws, they contribute to injustice and they should be illegal. State of mind should only speak to what the perp intended to do, why someone wants to violate another should be irrelevant.
Motive should be irrelevant? Should motive be irrelevant when:
- a member of the KKK kills a black man?
- a nazi kills a Jew?
- a member of Boko Haram kills a Christian (not known to him)?
- an Al Qeida member kills an American?
- deciding the difference between manslaughter and murder?

Should people be allowed to spread hate propoganda?

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
A typical dishonest slight of hand from a feminist

Quote:
Rodger was a “Nice Guy,” a man who feels he is entitled to sex based on positive personality traits known only to him. (“I've wanted love, affection, adoration. You think I’m unworthy of it. That's a crime that can never be forgiven,” he said).


http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/05/24/elliot_rodger_the_pick_up_artist_community_s_predictable_horrible_response.html

The guy was very clear that his complaint is that women will have "nothing" to do with him, it is not that he did not get sex. A lot different types of female attention other than sex would have helped to calm him down. But the feminist jumps right to assuming a demand for sex.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:41 pm
@hawkeye10,
Probably because of how angry he was that he was a 22 year old virgin, and how angry he was at other men for having sex with women, and how he thought women were sluts...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:44 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
the same could then be said of 9-11..
the same was very often said about 9-11...and still is.

Quote:
This guys mass murder has very little to do with the repression of me
doubtful, for reasons I have already explain. If I cant convince you then I cant convince you, it is not the end of the world.

Quote:
Motive should be irrelevant?
With almost any conceivable case that I can come up with, maybe something like trying to start a nuclear war might convince me to punish on the basis of motive, but for the most part it is the violation that should be punished to the extent of the violation....any known or imagined motive for the violation is irrelevant, to include your examples.

Quote:
Should people be allowed to spread hate propoganda?
ABSOLUTELY!
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:49 pm
I can't get toehold of understanding re the last bunch of posts.

Back to baseball, g'night all.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:49 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

Probably because of how angry he was that he was a 22 year old virgin, and how angry he was at other men for having sex with women, and how he thought women were sluts...
He was very clear that sex was only one of many things he never got from women, to claim otherwise is either comprehension melt-down or dishonesty. I am going with dishonesty here because Hess is clearly not stupid.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 10:50 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I imagine he was bullied by his roommates
or other dudes about not getting any tail.
Did he reside with those students??
A boarding school ?




Lash wrote:
I certainly am only imagining that - based on my experience with how dudes
make such a point of doing this to each other.
From kindergarten thru doctorate,
I never witnessed that.



Lash wrote:
But, I believe the biggest reason this happened is because the kid was a sociopath
or suffered from some psychiatric disturbance.
Yes.



Lash wrote:
It's obvious in his words. He hated women. He had a dramatically skewed worldview.

He was handsome in my opinion
I was wishing that I had looked as good as that, in my youth.


0 Replies
 
 

 
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