Elliot Rodger

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye wrote:

the same was very often said about 9-11...and still is.

Well -1 to Hawkeye for stating the absolute obvious, which no-one is in disagreement with, while missing the actual message.

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doubtful, for reasons I have already explain. If I cant convince you then I cant convince you, it is not the end of the world.

Err no...you've said he couldn't get pussy...like women have an obligation to give a guy sex.

Quite frankly, if saying 'no' is opression...then you have a very warped view of oppression.

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With almost any conceivable case that I can come up with, maybe something like trying to start a nuclear war might convince me to punish on the base of motive, but for the most part it is the violation that should be punished to the extent of the violation....any known or imagined motive for the violation is irrelevant, to include your examples.

The reason hate crime is repugnant is for two reasons:
- the person who hates will continue to do his crimes so long as he/she hates
- they try to convert other people to their hate (which if they are successful then results in further crimes)

edit: you can add to this : they create a climate of fear among populations, they stimulate conflict, any not every crime gets reported...or is able to be proven...

I have no issue with higher penalties for hate crimes. Law & punishment is there for 2 reasons:
- social cohesion
- where it can't achieve social cohesion - keeping the dangerous ones off the street.

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@vikorr,

..the same could then be said of 9-11... IT WAS

and yet it's unlikely that any individual in the twin towers deserved such TRUE and I said the individuals here did not

. Social tragedies are tragedies due to human loss never disputed it, simply said that the collective deserved it

...not the loss of a faceless number. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW ALL ABOUT EACH PERSON WHO DIED THAT SEEMS FINE TO ME, DOES NOT CHANGE THAT THEY DID NOT DESERVE TO DIE AND WILL NOT CHANGE THAT THIS SOCIETY DESERVED THE ATTACK

We should never reduce such things to meaningless numbers. I DONT AGREE FOR THE SAME REASON I SAY THAT DEBATES HERE SHOULD NOT GET BOGGED DOWN IN PERSONALITIES...SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO TAKE A GENERAL GLOBAL VIEW TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT, YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF THE WEEDS THAT OBSTRUCT YOUR VIEW. SOMETIMES YOU CAN ONLY DO THIS WITH NUMBERS. AT THE END OF THE DAY WHAT MATTERS IS UNDERSTANDING, HOW YOU GET THERE SHOULD BE THE FASTED METHOD BUT OTHERWISE DOES NOT MATTER. WHAT YOU ARE DOING HERE IS TAKING YOUR PREFERENCE AND CLAIMING THAT WE SHOULD ALL DO THE SAME..LIKE " IF YOU ARE GOING TO EAT ICE CREAM YOU MUST EAT CHOCOLATE"

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

I guess that David (Mr. NRA) has no problem that Rodger had little difficulty in gaining a nice legally-obtained collection of guns. It is truly absurd that everyone, even psychos, have easy access to guns.

Americans are Free people. As such, we have the Right to carry guns whenever we go about in public.

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@vikorr,

I understand he hated, but he seemed highly obsessed. Though, I suppose hate crime doers do that.

I just take thinking of this as hate crime is true but also off the wall - he was clearly berserk, and given his expansive hate, sort of an all encompassing hater acting out, the crazyness paramount. He would have probably hated anyone and any thing, cloud hating.0

1 Reply

@vikorr,

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The reason hate crime is repugnant is for two reasons:
- the person who hates will continue to do his crimes so long as he/she hates

THE PERSON WHO DOES CRIME FOR MONEY LIKELY WILL DO CRIME FOR AS LONG AS HE NEEDS MONEY WITH IS HIS ENTIRE LIFE, AND YET WE STILL ONLY RING THE PERSON UP FOR EACH CRIME THAT THEY ACTUALLY DO, NOT BASED ON OUR FEARS OF CRIMES THEY MIGHT DO, THIS IS CALLED JUSTICE. YOUR ARGUMENT HERE THAT WE SHOULD VIOLATE THIS RULE FOR CLAIMS OF HATE MOTIVE IS NONSENSE
- they try to convert other people to their hate (which if they are successful then results in further crimes)

ALL IDEAS SHOULD TRY TO GET THE REST OF THE PEOPLE TO AGREE WITH IT, THIS IS HOW THE BEST IDEAS RISE TO THE TOP. IF A HATE IDEA IS A REALLY BAD IDEA AS YOU SEEM TO THINK IT IS THEN IT SHOULD DIE, RIGHT? THIS IDEA OF YOURS THAT WE SHOULD CRIMINALIZE OR OTHERWISE CENSOR IDEAS BECAUSE WE ARE AFRAID THAT PEOPLE WILL LIKE THEM BETRAY YOUR COMPLETE LACK OF FAITH IN HUMANITY (UNFOUNDED I THINK) AND IT IS A REALLY BAD IDEA BECAUSE IT DIRECTLY ATTACKS THE WAY CIVILIZATION ADVANCES.....THAT IS NEW IDEAS THAT ARE ALMOST ALWAY NOT LIKED AT FIRST BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT AGREE WITH THEM RISING TO THE TOP AS MORE AND MORE PEOPLE GET CONVINCED BY THE ARGUMENT. YOUR ARGUMENT DEFENDING HATE CRIME LAW IS I FIND VERY DEPRESSING AND CHILLING, AND I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT YOUR IDEA GETS THE DEATH THAT IT DESERVES.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Should people be allowed to spread hate propoganda?

Freedom of Speech demands it.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

vikorr wrote:
Should people be allowed to spread hate propoganda?

Freedom of Speech demands it.

and as I argued so does the health of civilization.

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@ossobuco,

Quote:

I understand he hated, but he seemed highly obsessed. Though, I suppose hate crime doers do that

Hi Osso...my comments on Hawkeye's view of hate crimes were in relation to those views...not in relation to Rodgers.

By the way, although I think it's been sorted - Aspergers is not a mental illness. It's somewhere between a mental disorder and a mental impairment...depending on the degree. It's neither a disease, nor an illness.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

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Aspergers is not a mental illness. It's somewhere between a mental disorder and a mental impairment...depending on the degree. It's neither a disease, nor an illness.

well, that is a clear as mud.....

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

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ALL IDEAS SHOULD TRY TO GET THE REST OF THE PEOPLE TO AGREE WITH IT, THIS IS HOW THE BEST IDEAS RISE TO THE TOP. IF A HATE IDEA IS A REALLY BAD IDEA AS YOU SEEM TO THINK IT IS THEN IT SHOULD DIE, RIGHT? THIS IDEA OF YOURS THAT WE SHOULD CRIMINALIZE OR OTHERWISE CENSOR IDEAS BECAUSE WE ARE AFRAID THAT PEOPLE WILL LIKE THEM BETRAY YOUR COMPLETE LACK OF FAITH IN HUMANITY (UNFOUNDED I THINK) AND IT IS A REALLY BAD IDEA BECAUSE IT DIRECTLY ATTACKS THE WAY CIVILIZATION ADVANCES.....THAT IS NEW IDEAS THAT ARE ALMOST ALWAY NOT LIKED AT FIRST BECAUSE PEOPLE DO NOT AGREE WITH THEM RISING TO THE TOP AS MORE AND MORE PEOPLE GET CONVINCED BY THE ARGUMENT. YOUR ARGUMENT DEFENDING HATE CRIME LAW IS I FIND VERY DEPRESSING AND CHILLING, AND I CERTAINLY HOPE THAT YOUR IDEA GETS THE DEATH THAT IT DESERVES.

Where on earth did you get this nonsense from?

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IF A HATE IDEA IS A REALLY BAD IDEA AS YOU SEEM TO THINK IT IS THEN IT SHOULD DIE, RIGHT?

So very wrong - even bad ideas can gain a life of their own.

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THIS IDEA OF YOURS THAT WE SHOULD CRIMINALIZE OR OTHERWISE CENSOR IDEAS BECAUSE WE ARE AFRAID THAT PEOPLE WILL LIKE THEM BETRAY YOUR COMPLETE LACK OF FAITH IN HUMANITY

Why am I not surprised you wrote this? Usually people leave the thing they are least able to face and focus on the minor - usually debatable point...you fall right into this category here. My main point, you'll remember, is that hate crimes deserve a more severe punishment.

I am also not surprised that you feel the need to demonise anyone you disagree with on this issue with a nonsensical absolute -a complete lack of faith in humanity Rolling Eyes

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IT IS A REALLY BAD IDEA BECAUSE IT DIRECTLY ATTACKS THE WAY CIVILIZATION ADVANCES

Civilisation advances through hate? Wow...why didn't I ever see that...all those advances this last century...caused by hate...

Your attempt to tie ideas caused by hate into ideas that resulted in the advancement of civilisation is odd.

Normally your arguments, whether I agreed with them or not, were 'rational' if you looked at things from a particular perspective...but either those perspectives have become more extreme, you're under some abnormal emotional pressure, or a few wires have loosened, because that thread of 'rationality' doesn't seem to be there at present.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

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well, that is a clear as mud.....

Look into the differences if you need clarification.

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@vikorr,

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because that thread of 'rationality' doesn't seem to be there at present.

Humans are both rational and irrational so this is not a deal killer for me. We choose what we care about and to some extent we choose what we believe in. I believe in free men with free will and in the facilitation of the combat of ideas for all comers . I am against all but the most necessary suppression of individuals or ideas by the collective. I am firmly convinced that a collective of free people who say what they want and believe what they want and argue all ideas between themselves is the only way to have a strong vibrant collective. I believe that heavy handed policing and wide spread suppression of individuals and/or ideas leads ALWAYS to a weak collective. I am a socialist, I believe that the health of the collective takes priority every everything else.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

That's pretty good...I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but that's what humanity is about.

I'm still curious by the cause of the change in level of 'rationality' in this thread compared to others you've posted in...but not all things were made to be answered.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

I guess that David (Mr. NRA) has no problem that Rodger had little difficulty in gaining a nice legally-obtained collection of guns. It is truly absurd that everyone, even psychos, have easy access to guns.

Its the same as having access to hammers,
to many gallons of gasoline and to fast cars: all can be used as lethal weapons,
but the idea of Prohibition (be it of alcohol or of marijuana etc.)
has been humorously un-successful.

David

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

That's pretty good...I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but that's what humanity is about.

I'm still curious by the cause of the change in level of 'rationality' in this thread compared to others you've posted in...but not all things were made to be answered.

Partly is that I do get emotional, I am Zen for cripes sake, we dont shut down any part of who we are........the feminists are insane, and dangerous. I cant watch them damage our society by suppressing men, encouraging the mistreatment of men, and not be pissed off. Unnecessary human suffering pisses me the **** off.

This rampage could have been prevented very easily, by a few females showing this guy the time of day. It was not prevented, in part I blame the feminists, and in part it was because this guy was damaged. Thing is when you teach that men are dangerous any man who seems a little off is going to get the cold shoulder , which makes them more dangerous. And you know what, we are not Gods, every man is flawed. The feminists turn this into an excuse for suppression.

**** THEM!

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

This rampage could have been prevented very easily, by a few females showing this guy the time of day.

Possibly (it is debatable - we only know what he presented so far, and I find a lot of that reeks of a great deal of poetic licence interspersed with fiction and truth)...but it should never be that women become obligated to have sex (or love) with a specific guy...just so he doesn't murder people. From another angle - it would be rather wierd (outside of prostitution) for a woman to have sex with a guy they found wierd...and unusual to show 'the time of day' to someone they find wierd...like attracts like, this is human nature. It's also the nature of women, for very good biological & genetic reasons, to avoid sex or love with guys they find creepy.

In all of this, you appear to be seeking to blame women, for a man who is essentially an abherration...and then using it to promote your agenda like he was a normal male, oppressed by 'feminists'. People see right through this...it's dishonest, and creates a backlash against what you are trying to achieve...

...just like you despise feminists by attaching certain negative attributes to 'them'... through your actions, you too have often been bracketed into a 'them' category, with people attaching negative tags to you - and the more you display those tags (like for example 'dishonest manipulator') the more strongly people attach these tags to you...which allows people to ever more strongly disregard what you say...and then...as your 'category' becomes ever more 'clear'...the more strongly people start attaching 'your attributes' (the tags they attach to you) to the things you are trying to articulate, like 'men are being emasculated by society' (eg. they might say 'only mysoginists hold this view' or 'only crackpots hold this view' or 'only those in the bdsm community hold this view, and we all know they're just odd'...etc)

Honest anger on the other hand...is a powerful thing.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Partly is that I do get emotional, I am Zen for cripes sake, we dont shut down any part of who we are........the feminists are insane, and dangerous. I cant watch them damage our society by suppressing men, encouraging the mistreatment of men, and not be pissed off. Unnecessary human suffering pisses me the **** off.

This rampage could have been prevented very easily, by a few females showing this guy the time of day. It was not prevented, in part I blame the feminists, and in part it was because this guy was damaged. Thing is when you teach that men are dangerous any man who seems a little off is going to get the cold shoulder , which makes them more dangerous. And you know what, we are not Gods, every man is flawed. The feminists turn this into an excuse for suppression.

**** THEM!

Hawk I do understand people's personal emotions when a discussion takes place. But, you do realise that he's talking from 14 years of age, (a kiss) to 22 years of age, which I am not sure if he would have turned 22 on the 24/7/2014 or 23. Note he chose the 24th of April, then 24th May.. So a lot of girls 14,15,16,17,18 believe it or not are still Virgins. He possibly not being rude, could have found a nice Asian girl, but are there many in the area if any, where he went to College? But he didn't want to, she had to be blonde. He had a thing for blonde girls/women and they were in his opinion sluts, all of them.. He had a type and that type went for mucho, tats, height, big mouths, popular. As a good percentage of girls do until someone makes them realise they have been used and abused by this type and can be loved.

Why did he want love so much. He didn't say sex, sex, sex, he said, love, to be loved, to love back to have sex...

A lot of guys have high libidos and mastabate. He talked of this affecting him for 8 years.. Not one, two, three, 8... He was socially awkward couldn't communicate with people, he had an ego so big, he was right all the time, he rebelled. He wouldn't mix with people. He was a loner. How can that attract a woman?

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@FOUND SOUL,

I wish I'd seen this thread before I started my own thread on the same subject. I think what happened was AWFUL, and murder is WRONG, period.

But the media and feminism specifically are WARPING this incident. First off there were more male victims than there were female.

Also, while I DO NOT support hatred and murder, it's CLEAR that this young man was in a lot of pain. It's easy to understand the feeling of alienation at being a virgin at age 22. In our over sexualized society men ARE to at least some extent viewed as inferior if they are not sexually experienced.

And you can't argue against the fact that in the realm of biology and evolution women have a BIG leg up on men. They DO live with the ability to have sex whenever they choose. And it's got to be REALLY hard for a female to understand how frustrating it is as a man to basically be powerless and basically be forced to take ANY sex you can get because you never know if you'll get it again (I'm over generalizing a bit, but not much.) Women just haven't walked in those shoes as a collective.

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He was known to be mentally ill

I do think he was mentally ill, but I don't believe that was the only reason this happened. There have GOT to be men even MORE frustrated than him out there, and this is going to happen again if society doesn't become more sympathetic to men's issues and men's frustrations, and if feminism continues to warp our perceptions.

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@vikorr,

Quote:

It's also the nature of women, for very good biological & genetic reasons, to avoid sex or love with guys they find creepy.

While I disagree with hawkeye to some extent, I also agree with his base premise. The point is that women get the POWER to choose. On a base level. Men DO NOT. They are simply forced to take what they can get. That, in it's nature creates an atmosphere of inequality, dissent, and resentment. Men become the lower beings because of this, and SOME become extremely angry and take that anger out as a means of relieving pain that they feel will never end.

This is all very sad.

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@nononono,

Feel free to copy and paste your other post onto here and I will do the same, just replied on it to you.

Elliot felt exactly that. That women get the power to choose. But doesn't that also encourage not only serial killers but rapists and murders? With this thought in mind?

Shouldn't we have the power to choose what we want, who we want, who we don't want?

Yes, we expect men to approach us and if we accept their approach we go ahead and if we don't, then we don't go ahead. Isn't that how it has always been? Even to the dating level?

1 Reply

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