ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jul, 2014 08:13 pm
@Buttermilk,
You leave yourself open on that one, re your posts, but glitterbag didn't say that and you know that.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2014 01:25 am
@Buttermilk,
Quote:
As I've said before I'm not necessarily against the idea of feminism, I just think feminism conceptually, does not address the ills women face. Contempoary feminism is westernized, and because it is such western feminism seeks to change the dynamics of other cultures...

Your inaccurate views are based on the fact that you don't know much about feminism. You seem to view it as some sort of group of Western philosophical missionary zealots out to meddle in and change the dynamics of other cultures.

Apparently, you know nothing about Islamic Feminism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism

Or feminism in Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism_in_Japan

Or feminism in India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism_in_India

Or the women's rights movement in Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_rights_movement_in_Iran

Or Orthodox Jewish feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Jewish_feminism

What makes you think that feminism "does not address the ills women face"? Are you an expert in "the ills women face"?



firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2014 02:01 am
Quote:
Indian student arrested in U.S. after threats to be released
By Jimmy Lovaas
SEATTLE
Jun 27, 2014

(Reuters) - A University of Washington student charged in federal court with making threatening comments over the Internet, including pledging to kill women and praising a California rampage gunman, will be released on bond on Friday, a judge ruled on Thursday.

But Keshav Mukund Bhide, a 23-year-old Indian national living in the United States on a student visa, will be required to wear a GPS monitor ankle bracelet, pending his trial and was ordered to stay away from the university campus.

U.S. District Court Judge Mary Alice Theiler told Bhide he would not be allowed to use any device with Internet access and ordered him to surrender his passport. He also will need a chaperone when he leaves his home, and will have to undergo a mental health evaluation.

Bhide was arrested on June 14 after police were tipped off to threatening online comments he made on YouTube and Google+, which investigators found included praise for 22-year-old California gunman Elliot Rodger, authorities said.

Rodger killed six students and wounded 13 other people last month near the University of California at Santa Barbara before taking his own life. He left behind videos and writings expressing sexual frustration and revealing his plans to kill women.

"Everything Elliot did is perfectly justified," Bhide wrote under an account with the name "Foss Dark," according to court documents. Police said Bhide also chatted with other Internet users, including one who requested his name and residence.

"I live in Seattle and go to UW, that's all (I'll) give you. (I'll) make sure I kill only women, and many more than what Elliot accomplished," he replied, according to court papers.

Bhide told FBI agents and police who went to his home that he was angry with YouTube videos created by Internet users critical of Rodger, according to the federal complaint.

"Bhide stated that he, like Rodger, had a hard time socializing at school and had few friends," an FBI special agent said in the complaint.

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman Andrew Munoz said Bhide's student visa will stay in effect as long as he remains enrolled at the University of Washington, but that could change if he is convicted of a serious crime.

If he is found guilty of the federal charge of interstate threats, after completing his sentence he could be brought before an immigration judge to determine if he should be deported, Munoz said.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/06/26/usa-threats-washington-idINKBN0F12RM20140626
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Jul, 2014 02:23 am
Quote:
Women’s right to refuse
By Kokila Annamalai
Singapore
June 26, 2014

On May 23, Elliot Rodger went on a killing spree in Isla Vista, California, that was motivated by the desire to punish women for rejecting him.

While many in the international community have condemned his actions, some men on social media responded with empathy for Rodger and a certain understanding of his sentiments.

A group of men went further to start a Facebook group to hero-worship Rodger.

On June 16, University of Washington student Keshav Bhide was arrested for claiming to be “the next Elliot Rodger” and threatening to murder women.

He claimed everything Rodger did was justified and publicly praised the latter’s actions.

These men not only defend Rodger’s actions, but relate to his anger towards women who rejected him.

Their anger in response to sexual rejection hints at a perceived right to have sex with the women they desire and a denial of women’s right to refuse.

While some have blamed Rodger’s mental health issues for his actions, it is clear from the support of some men and the many such stories of men’s violence in reaction to women’s sexual rejection — collected by online campaign When Women Refuse — that Rodger’s attitude towards women is not a psychological problem, but a social one.

Women around the world experience violence when they reject men’s sexual advances. Why?

A recent United Nations survey of 10,000 men in Asia and the Pacific found that nearly half of the men interviewed reported using physical or sexual violence against a female partner and nearly a quarter admitted to rape.

The most common motivation that men cited for rape was sexual entitlement — a belief that they have a right to sex with women regardless of consent. In short, women are seen as not having the right to say no to sex.

Singapore, too, has seen incidents of women being attacked for rejecting men.

Recently, a man reportedly threw alcohol and smashed a glass into the face of a woman who ignored his advances at a club in Clarke Quay.

Readers’ comments in response to news reports of the incident included those that said the victim must have been out in Clarke Quay because she was desperate for sex and that she should have “use (sic) more EQ if she intend (sic) to reject him”.

When women are raped or sexually assaulted, they are often told they should have said no more assertively or fought off the perpetrator. They are blamed for sending mixed signals or not doing enough to stop the rape.

Yet, when women are attacked for rejecting sexual advances, they are told they should have been more polite or tactful about it.

This is a clear case of “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”. These victim-blaming attitudes excuse men’s sexual violence as uncontrollable, reinforcing their sense of sexual entitlement.

RIGHT TO CHOOSE

Male sexual entitlement is perpetuated through mainstream media, where men are regularly shown responding to women’s rejection with anger and violence.

In Singapore, it is also perpetuated through the law, which gives men immunity when they force their wives to have sex, unless the couple are living apart or a Personal Protection Order has been started or obtained prior to the incident.

The masculine rhetoric of sex as conquest, rather than as an experience shared by two consenting adults, diminishes women’s right to say no.

When male sexual aggression is portrayed as an acceptable way of flirting or engaging in sex, rather than as harassment or violence, women are not safe when they reject men.

Sex education must focus on the importance of consent and the right of everyone to say no without fear of repercussion.

Language such as “giving in” or “putting out” in reference to women consenting to intercourse reduces their role in sex to submission, rather than active participation.

All of us have a right to choose whom we have sex with. Women’s sexual desires and choices are as important as men’s.

Fixating on Rodger’s psyche or that of the men who commit violence against women draws attention away from underlying social norms and power structures that contribute to such violence.

Men should not have to prove their masculinity by committing violence against women, while women should have the right to say no to sex without fear of repercussion.

Only then can women be equal participants in private and public life, able to exercise their choice with intimate partners or a stranger at a club.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
Kokila Annamalai is the campaign coordinator for We Can! End All Violence Against Women (Singapore chapter), a global movement against gender violence.
http://www.todayonline.com/singapore/womens-right-refuse?singlepage=true
0 Replies
 
Buttermilk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 11:22 am
@firefly,
This goes to show you don't know **** about Islam and its typical that you post stupid ass wikipedia links to try and prove your point. My point was not to say "Islamic feminism" doesn't exist, it's to say that Western Feminism is influencing other religions. Muhammad was the first prophet to establish regulations within Islamic Law to rid Post pagan Arabia of infanticide, gave women rights such as dowry which is the woman's property and other established laws that granted women's right, nothing found in Judeo-Christian traditions.

“The limitations of feminism are evident in the construction of the (implicitly consensual) priority of issues around which apparently all women are expected to organize.”


Western views of women in Islamic countries

"The image of women in the "Third World" generally, and of Muslim women in particular, in the West are very schematic and prejudiced. Marred by racism and ethnocentrism, attitudes towards Muslims have become harsher in recent years. The Muslim woman has been portrayed as submissive, oppressed, and backward. Mass media and educational systems have played a major role in the construction of this representation."

www.iran-bulletin.org/political_islam/islamfeminismedited2.html

As you can see the ideas that are present among so-called "Muslim feminist" are new ideas presented due to the western influence upon eastern religions. Women in Islam over the centuries had better rights than Jewish and Christian women. So before you put your head in your ass I'm merely discussing the new and influential concept of westernized feminism placed upon people who have practiced their faiths undisturbed for centuries.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 11:36 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
Indian student arrested in U.S. after threats to be released
By Jimmy Lovaas
SEATTLE
Jun 27, 2014

(Reuters) - A University of Washington student charged in federal court with making threatening comments over the Internet, including pledging to kill women and praising a California rampage gunman, will be released on bond on Friday, a judge ruled on Thursday.

But Keshav Mukund Bhide, a 23-year-old Indian national living in the United States on a student visa, will be required to wear a GPS monitor ankle bracelet, pending his trial and was ordered to stay away from the university campus.

U.S. District Court Judge Mary Alice Theiler told Bhide he would not be allowed to use any device with Internet access and ordered him to surrender his passport. He also will need a chaperone when he leaves his home, and will have to undergo a mental health evaluation.

Bhide was arrested on June 14 after police were tipped off to threatening online comments he made on YouTube and Google+, which investigators found included praise for 22-year-old California gunman Elliot Rodger, authorities said.

Rodger killed six students and wounded 13 other people last month near the University of California at Santa Barbara before taking his own life. He left behind videos and writings expressing sexual frustration and revealing his plans to kill women.

"Everything Elliot did is perfectly justified," Bhide wrote under an account with the name "Foss Dark," according to court documents. Police said Bhide also chatted with other Internet users, including one who requested his name and residence.

"I live in Seattle and go to UW, that's all (I'll) give you. (I'll) make sure I kill only women, and many more than what Elliot accomplished," he replied, according to court papers.

Bhide told FBI agents and police who went to his home that he was angry with YouTube videos created by Internet users critical of Rodger, according to the federal complaint.

"Bhide stated that he, like Rodger, had a hard time socializing at school and had few friends," an FBI special agent said in the complaint.

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman Andrew Munoz said Bhide's student visa will stay in effect as long as he remains enrolled at the University of Washington, but that could change if he is convicted of a serious crime.

If he is found guilty of the federal charge of interstate threats, after completing his sentence he could be brought before an immigration judge to determine if he should be deported, Munoz said.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/06/26/usa-threats-washington-idINKBN0F12RM20140626

If it were up to me,
he 'd be given a quick trial to see if he DID
assert the threats and upon conviction: deport him.


Let him use the Internet all he wants; in INDIA.





David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jul, 2014 02:59 pm
@Buttermilk,
Quote:
As you can see the ideas that are present among so-called "Muslim feminist" are new ideas presented due to the western influence upon eastern religions


That's absolutely untrue.

I suggest you re-read that article you posted. You are clearly discounting the views of Islamic feminists who view their own religion, in the context of their own culture, without the imposition of western influence.

And you are failing to recognize the patriarchal nature of both Judeo-Christian religions, as well as Islam, that has prompted independent responses from feminists within all of those religious groups, and within societies dominated by those religions, because of the impact on women's standing and positions, both within those religions themselves, and within the larger societies governed by those religions. That has prompted different feminist groups, and women in general, to independently call for reforms, more in line with the awareness and perspective of contemporary society, in all of those religions. But movements advocating such changes come almost exclusively from within those religious groups, and not from outside of them.
Quote:
Generally, religions have a patriarchal view of the relationship between the genders. The relationship between Adam and Eve symbolizes how many religions view women. As Al Hibri writes:

God was declared male, and man was declared to be created in His likeness. Eve became the symbol of temptation and sin. The woman was consequently judged as a less likely candidate for salvation and an everlasting life in heaven than man. (1981, p 176)

But some scholars point out that, in comparison with other religions, the idea of patriarchy is even greater in Islam. They mean that there are in the Koran many verses, especially Surah 4 which clearly legitimizes gender inequality. Even hadith (stories from the, Prophets life) and Shariah (Islamic law) have the same tendency. Why? Rita Liljestrom, a Swedish sociologist, explains that there is a fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity in their attitudes to sexuality, which influences the view on women (1984, p. 10). She points out that the Christian Church attacks sexuality in itself. Sexuality is reduced to something “profane and sinful”, sexuality signifies the division of human beings into body and soul. Civilization represents the soul’s victory over the body, spirit over the flesh, and diligence over lust. Islam takes a different approach. It never repudiates sexuality as such. In fact sex is a taste of paradise. But Islam attacks women instead. As the living carrier of the danger of sexuality and its infinite social destructive forces, women have to be controlled. Sexuality itself is not dangerous since it is the foretaste of paradise that leads men to Allah (Sabbah, 1984).

The different views on the nature of sexuality have resulted in separate strategies of control within Christianity and Islam.

Since Islam regards women as an active sexual power, it is important to restrict women’s sexual power over men. The result is isolating women and men in different worlds. A woman’s sexuality has to be concealed. Her looks and behavior must not reveal her sexual force since it will remind the man of his weakness. Fatima Mernessi, a famous Arab feminist, explained a long time ago that the Christian portrayal of the individual as tragically torn between two poles (good and evil, flesh and spirit, instinct and reason) is very different from that of Islam, which has a more sophisticated theory of the instincts, more akin to the Freudian concept of the libido. She writes:

In western culture, sexual inequality is based on the belief in the biological inferiority of woman. In Islam, it is the contrary: the whole system is based on the assumption that woman is a powerful and dangerous being. All sexual institutions (polygamy, repudiation, sexual segregation, etc.) can be perceived as a strategy for constraining her power (Mernissi 1975, P 16).

This explains why the Koran maintains man’s superiority and domination over woman. It is men’s responsibility and duty to keep women under their protection and control. http://www.iran-bulletin.org/political_islam/islamfeminismedited2.html

And Muslim religious feminists seek to view and interpret their own religions from their own religious perspective, and their own feminine perspective, and not on the basis of any other culture, or religion, or school of thought, including what you see as western feminism. Give Islamic women some credit for being able to think for themselves. They contend that interpretations of Islam should include more than a patriarchal view of scripture. And Muslim feminism is hardly new.
Quote:
Muslims feminism is not a new movement. In the beginning of the nineteenth century a few great Islamic thinkers such as Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi (al-Afqani), Muhammad Abduh, Rashid Reza, and especially Qasim Amin and later “the Sister’s movement” in the Arabic countries tried to give a modern, liberal, reformist and feminist reinterpretation of Islam (Svensson, 1996).

Muslim feminism has liberal view of Islam and tries to adapt it to modern time. Muslims feminism argues that for a long time, our imagination about Islam was dominated by a patriarchal vision of Islam, but that this is not necessarily an authentic Islam. They argue that we should primarily focus on the teachings of the Koran because much of hadith and shari‘ah is a patriarchal reading of Islam.

However, we know that even many Koran verses (for example surah “Women”) legitimize gender inequality. Muslims feminists suggest that the Koran has two sorts of verses. One addresses the practical aspects of Muslim’s everyday life in the primitive Arabian society. Other verses concern morality and are normative. Unlike the former group of verses whose interpretation must change to reflect the present conditions of any society, the latter do not depend on time. But even in normative verses (especially in the surah “Women”) one can find patriarchal ideas. Muslim feminists’ answer is that if you believe that Good is just and the Koran is God’s word, it is not reasonable to consider that any verse could legitimize gender inequality. They argue that the Koran introduces many powerful female figures who played important roles in Islam and in the Prophet’s life, something that many of his successors did not favour (Svensson, 1996; Sajidzade, 1996). Muslim feminists point out that a liberal and feminist review of the Koran could contribute to the development of women’s emancipation in the Islamic country (Hassan, 1999). http://www.iran-bulletin.org/political_islam/islamfeminismedited2.html


The author of that article is definitely not supporting this conclusion of yours.
Quote:
As you can see the ideas that are present among so-called "Muslim feminist" are new ideas presented due to the western influence upon eastern religions

The main point of that article was to support the author's contention that only secular feminism, as opposed to Muslim feminist, is likely to succeed in Iran.
Quote:
Secular feminism has a neutral view about religion. Secular feminists argue that the relationship between Islam and feminism depends first and foremost on whether liberal or patriarchal view of Islam is dominant in the society. They also hold that under a theocratic government or a religious movement woman’s emancipation is impossible. But they do not think that feminist movements necessarily have to attack religious beliefs...

Conclusion

The question is whether women’s movements in Islamic societies such as Iran have found their way to challenge the establishment and to change the situation of women. Maybe not yet .We need more research on these questions. Perhaps it is not necessary for the feminist movement in Islamic countries to declare war on religion. However, the experience of the Islamic Republic of Iran shows how dangerous a religious movement could be for women. Secularism is an unavoidable prerequisite in women’s battle for liberation. Therefore, I insist that we should encourage secular feminism!
http://www.iran-bulletin.org/political_islam/islamfeminismedited2.html


How Islamic women are viewed by those in the West, seems to be a largely irrelevant concern for those feminists living in Islamic cultures. Whether they are secular, atheist, or Muslim feminists, the women in those countries identify those issues most important to them, from their own perspective, in the context of their own societies and their own religion. Islamic feminists, as well as atheist and secular feminists in Muslim countries, seek to offer an alternative view of feminism from that of Western feminism.
Quote:
I'm merely discussing the new and influential concept of westernized feminism placed upon people who have practiced their faiths undisturbed for centuries.

You seem to ignore the fact that women in Muslim countries are quite capable of evaluating their own positions, in their own societies, without reference to Westernized feminism.

Women's issues, and the position of women in Islam, and Islamic society, were being discussed long before Westernized feminism ever came into being. In fact, even Mohammed can be viewed as a feminist.
Quote:
During the early days of Islam in the 7th century CE, reforms in women's rights affected marriage, divorce and inheritance...

William Montgomery Watt states that Muhammad, in the historical context of his time, can be seen as a figure who testified on behalf of women's rights and improved things considerably. Watt explains: "At the time Islam began, the conditions of women were terrible – they had no right to own property, were supposed to be the property of the man, and if the man died everything went to his sons." Muhammad, however, by "instituting rights of property ownership, inheritance, education and divorce, gave women certain basic safeguards." Haddad and Esposito state that "Muhammad granted women rights and privileges in the sphere of family life, marriage, education, and economic endeavors, rights that help improve women's status in society...

Whilst the pre-modern period lacked a formal feminist movement, nevertheless a number of important figures argued for improving women's rights and autonomy. These range from the medieval mystic and philosopher Ibn Arabi, who argued that women could achieve spiritual stations as equally high as men to Nana Asma’u, daughter of eighteenth-century reformer Usman Dan Fodio, who pushed for literacy and the education of Muslim women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism


Western feminists really aren't the meddlers who are trying to interfere with other people's religions. You've made no case for that at all. If you want to make a case for religious meddlers, I'd suggest you take a look at all the Western Christian missionaries, who invade that part of the world looking to convert Muslims.

And I really fail to see any connection between Elliot Rodger and feminism.










firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2014 12:03 pm
Quote:
8 July 2014
How I tried to help Elliot Rodger

When a student, Elliot Rodger, went on a rampage in California in May, killing six people, one man began wondering if he could have prevented it. Hollywood screenwriter Dale Launer knew Rodger and had tried to help solve his problems with women.

On the night before the killings, at 21:18, Elliot sent me and 22 other people an email containing his so-called manifesto.

I read the first 10 pages. It contained many of the complaints that Elliot had mentioned before about women and society but this was more focused and filled with anger.

I was concerned for him - it was written in a way that made me think it could be a suicide note. I did think then, maybe he was becoming unhinged.

The next morning I woke up and checked my email - a friend had sent me a message saying I knew the Isla Vista shooter.

I hoped he hadn't killed anybody, but of course he had. I felt absolute horror and shock.

I've never considered myself responsible but you can't help feeling guilty. Could I have done something to stop it even though there was no way to know what was about to happen?

The Elliot portrayed in the manifesto and in the video he made was not the Elliot that I remember.

The person in that video was cocky, arrogant and hateful - the Elliot I knew was a very meek, timid and awkward kid.

I first met him when he was aged eight or nine and I could see then that there was something wrong with him.

I'm not a psychologist, but looking back now he strikes me as someone who was broken from the moment of conception.

It appeared to me that he had an overwhelming lack of confidence but not in a particularly endearing way. Sad, but not endearing.

You were hoping that inside there was a normal kid wanting to come out - that he would overcome his shyness and bloom in some way. What became evident, only after reading the manifesto and watching that video, was that what he was actually hiding was this horribly twisted little monster.

In the past, at times, he showed some bitterness and even some veiled anger but that anger wasn't remotely acted out in any way.

He never raised his voice - he didn't even seem capable of raising his voice. He didn't slam doors or pound his fist. I couldn't imagine him making a fist.

In retrospect, you can point out a few clues, a few cracks to the malevolence percolating underneath but they were overshadowed by someone who seemed incapable of any kind of action.

He did not simmer or seethe. The boldness he showed in that video wasn't something I ever saw before.

We met a few times and emailed a lot. He seemed convinced that women hated him but he could never tell me why.

It seemed like he would perceive cruelness or hatefulness when in fact, I suspected, he was just being ignored.

I remember giving him an assignment once so he could try to establish some kind of dynamic with a woman.

I told him, "When you see a woman next time you're on campus and you like her hair or sunglasses, just pay her a compliment."

I told him, "It's a freebie, something in passing, you're not trying to make conversation. Keep walking, don't make any long eye contact, just give the free compliment." The idea being you might make a friend if you make someone feel good.

I said to Elliot, "In the next few weeks - if you see them they'll likely give you a smile - and you can smile back and eventually turn this into chit-chat."

I got in touch with him a few weeks later and asked if he did it. He said "no". And when asked why not, he said "Why do I have to compliment them? Why don't they compliment me?"

At that stage, I realised he was very troubled.

In one of the last emails I sent to him, I became quite frustrated.

I pointed out that he had the choice to change his circumstances, and if he didn't make the effort then he had to take some of the blame. He insisted that, "I have to blame someone for my troubles, and I don't blame myself."

People did try to help him, he was getting support, but he was such a sad little character - whenever you saw him he was always unhappy.

I recall a mutual friend saying to me once, "I've never seen Elliot smile."

One time there was a gathering at his parents' place and Elliot was his usual uncomfortable self.

I asked Peter if Elliot was ticklish. Peter said he was, so I encouraged a couple of women to tickle him and you know, that was the only time I saw Elliot express any kind of joy. It seemed that, at least for those moments, he was a normal kid.

Some people think the manifesto he wrote was a fairly accurate assessment of his life when in fact it was very skewed.

He portrayed his stepmother as some kind of cruel, horrible character out of a fairy tale but she is a lovely, kind, decent woman.

His brother and sister are normal, vibrant, charming children but, from reading his manifesto, that's something he seemed to resent.

For his family, every day is now a bad day and they are trying their best to cope with it.

It's such a difficult thing to have this kid that you loved his whole life and then he does this horrible thing that just makes you so angry. Trying to reconcile those two feelings is a very hard thing to do.

When people like Elliot can go into a store and buy a gun that makes America less safe. I'm not anti-gun, I own guns myself but this is ridiculous. People like this should not be able to own guns.

I hope things will change and we can find some way of ensuring that dangerous people can't access guns. But it's difficult because not until the very end did Elliot ever show his violent nature.

You see people on TV every day whose anger is clearly out of control - he wasn't like that.

Perhaps, looking back, there were glimpses of callousness that might have been a clue but mostly he was a very controlled, passive and retiring person.

Since May, I've been asking myself what was wrong with Elliot - what made him do this? This is something I've been thinking about a lot.

I remember my parents had a dog that gave birth to five puppies and four were just lovely, normal, happy, little puppies.

Then there was a fifth puppy, called Pipper - he was smaller than the rest, sometimes he would tremble, he was never any fun, wouldn't play with the other puppies and would always seem afraid.

I don't know what it is that made Pipper like that but whatever it is, that would describe Elliot.

Dale Launer spoke to World Update on the BBC World Service
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28197785

FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2014 06:41 pm
@firefly,
Interesting how he describes Elliot's Step-Mother. Surely, if Elliot mentioned that she once told him that her son, his step-brother would get laid at an early age and be more successful than him, he would think a bit differently....

He wrote that well. Thanks FF for sharing it.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2014 10:42 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
Interesting how he describes Elliot's Step-Mother. Surely, if Elliot mentioned that she once told him that her son, his step-brother would get laid at an early age and be more successful than him, he would think a bit differently....

But he did read that in Elliot's manifesto, that's why he commented that the manifesto was skewed and not an accurate picture --he read the same things you and I did about the step-mother.

I also wonder if she really said those things or Elliot twisted them somewhat in the re-telling. It was Elliot who was preoccupied with getting laid, and everyone in the family knew that, and recognized his obsession with it as an indication of his psychological and social problems, so I find it somewhat difficult to believe she would have deliberately taunted him by saying his half-brother, her son, would fare better. I'm more inclined to think it was Elliot who brought the topic up with her, and she might have casually said, "I'm not worried about him, he'll do fine, girls are already after him," or something like that, not really intending it as a negative comment about Elliot, but merely saying it as a response to Elliot's concern that his half-brother might have the same problems he did.

I agree with the man in that article that Elliot painted his step-mother as a caricature of the evil step-mother out of a fairy tale. I think that's because Elliot always resented her position in his father's life, she was a competitor for him, and he never did really accept her as being a part of his family, he merely tolerated her, and I'm sure he was difficult for her to deal with. That alone could have skewed how he perceived her, and how he described her in his manifesto. His perceptions of other people were colored by his emotions, and by whether they gave him what he wanted, he wasn't objective at all, and he distorted many things--his thinking was twisted--so, while the manifesto tells us how he saw events and people, I think we should question the accuracy of what he reports--it's his version of reality. Other than his mother, and his nannies, and his grandmothers, all of whom catered to him, he pretty much saw all other females --step-mother included--as treating him cruelly, when that wasn't the case either.

I don't know whether you saw Barbara Walter's interview with his father. According to the father, he did use the links to the men's sites that Elliot sent him, and he did read the posts there, and he did talk to Elliot about them. The father said he felt what was being expressed there was "evil" and it disturbed him, and he questioned Elliot about why he was associating himself with such "evil" and encouraged him to stop. I didn't have the impression that Elliot had steered his father to posts he had made, and he may have just wanted his father to see that others also had problems with women and expressed the same negative feeling toward women that he had. But the father's version differed from Elliot's--he claimed his parents ignored the links and never went to the sites.

I wish Walters had asked Peter Rodger about the therapy Elliot allegedly received during his time in Santa Barbara--Elliot did mention by name one of the psychologists he saw, and I think he sent the manifesto to a therapist just before the killing rampage, but that entire issue, as well as others, just never came up. I suspect that Walters let Peter Rodger decide what he wanted to talk about, and what he didn't--and, all things considered, that was probably the best approach. Given what the man is emotionally grappling with, being at all confrontational with him, particularly so soon after the event, would have been unseemly. I'm surprised he had the fortitude to do the interview--most parents and family members of other mass murderers either never do interviews or they wait considerably longer before they feel able to do them.

It would be interesting to hear from other people--like Elliot's two long-time childhood friends--what their experiences with him were like, and whether these changed over time. Maybe, eventually, they will speak out. It would help to add balance to his manifesto.







nononono
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 10 Jul, 2014 11:07 pm
@firefly,
The Barbara Walters interview was nothing more than a public relations piece for Peter Rogers.

Peter Rogers was just as much a piece of why the massacre happened as any other factors were. And what a pile of **** he was selling in that interview! He said that he told Eliot to look at people's "inner beauty" and to "not be weird" or some similar wording to that extent, but then he also admits that he tried to get a hooker for his son in Las Vegas...

My personal opinion is that Roger's family was very materialistic and superficial/shallow. This materialism/shallowness is part of what contributed to the views about the world that Eliot formed.

From everything I've read, I really get the sense that Peter Rogers cared more about his career than his son. And honestly the Walters interview was nothing more than a PR piece to help clean his name up in Hollywood.

But you really can't expect much from the mainstream media and fluff journalists like Walters anyway. Everyone involved in those stories has an agenda to push, and most of the time it's an agenda to get ratings/views i.e. money...


I think our culture is really fucked up. We focus WAY too much on things like money, possessions, and superficial beauty. And unfortunately I don't see that changing anytime soon. Our fucked up culture will breed more like Eliot Rogers.



Quote:
According to the father, he did use the links to the men's sites that Elliot sent him


Quit using the term "men's sights" or similar wordage firefly. Either say that the sites Rogers visited were PICK UP ARTIST sites or don't even mention them at all. Pick up artist sites are NOT the same thing as men's rights sites! What you're doing when you say "men's sights" is continuing to attempt to connect Rogers to the MRM, and that is a flat out fallacy! Rogers had ZERO connection to the MRM, and you really should admit that that's true.

0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 12:33 am
@firefly,
When you use the term "Men's sights" or "Manosphere" the way you are, you're implying that any site with predominantly male visitors/members is hateful/harmful. So I guess espn.com and menshealth.com are "hateful" too?

I'm willing to bet that Jodi Arias visited some quote unquote "women's sites" too...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 01:30 am
@nononono,
nononono wrote:

When you use the term "Men's sights" or "Manosphere" the way you are, you're implying that any site with predominantly male visitors/members is hateful/harmful. So I guess espn.com and menshealth.com are "hateful" too?

I'm willing to bet that Jodi Arias visited some quote unquote "women's sites" too...

moderns (especially liberals) decry prejudice even as they practice a most virulent form of it. this is but one of an infinite forms of fantasy trumping reality with the moderns. It will be our undoing.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 01:42 am
@nononono,
Quote:
When you use the term "Men's sights" or "Manosphere" the way you are, you're implying that any site with predominantly male visitors/members is hateful/harmful. So I guess espn.com and menshealth.com are "hateful" too?

"Men's sights"? Do men have particular vision problems addressed on some Web sites? If so, I wasn't referring to those. Laughing

I've never said, or implied, that "any site with predominantly male visitors/members is hateful/harmful". I have referred to the "manosphere"--and I used that term as it is currently understood--and that does include a number of sites in which hatred and vitriol toward women is a notable feature.

And the term "manosphere" is a lot more specific than the way sites in the manosphere use terms like "feminists" or "feminism", since they rarely identify who, within that extremely diverse group, they are referring to.

Quote:
Inside the ‘manosphere’ that inspired Santa Barbara shooter Elliot Rodger
by Caitlin Dewey
May 27, 2014

Elliot Rodger will forever be known as the 22-year-old who murdered six people in Santa Barbara on May 23. But Rodger’s extensive digital footprint, as well as his stomach-turning YouTube send-off and 137-page manifesto, suggest that he may have identified himself differently: as an “incel,” or involuntary virgin; as an aspirational, if frustrated, pick-up artist; and as an adherent of the so-called “manosphere” — that corner of the Internet where boys will be boys, girls will be objects, and critics will be “feminists,” “misandrists” or “enemies.”

If you’re not familiar with these terms, you’re not alone: The manosphere and its various components tend to only make mainstream news over tragedies (like this one) and controversies (like one “activist’s” opposition to date-rape seminars on college campuses). But to thousands of men across the Internet — including, apparently, Rodger — they’re home.

Rodger has personally been linked to an account on the pick-up site PUAhate.com, where he advocated an overthrow of “this oppressive feminist system” and envisioned “a world where WOMEN FEAR YOU.” On YouTube, he followed a number of accounts that claimed to teach pick-up artistry — a skill that’s equal parts pseudoscience, manipulation and objectification. In his last YouTube video, in which he chillingly announces the start of his killing spree, Rodger even cops some classic pick-up lingo: “You will finally see that I am, in truth, the superior one. The true alpha male.” (Emphasis mine.)

Let’s be clear: None of this suggests that (a) the manosphere is somehow to blame for Rodger’s killing spree, (b) that other factors like mental health or gun laws are less critical, or (c) that every would-be “pick-up artist,” or PUA, is one rejection away from mass murder. Making those kinds of sweeping conclusions would be, as critics have pointed out, really irresponsible and dumb.

That said, Rodger’s misogynistic rhetoric seems undeniably influenced by the manosphere, and his manifesto has kicked off a loud debate about how modern society treats women, online and off. If there was ever a time to take a closer look at online misogyny, it’s now.

Alas, even from a distance, it doesn’t look too pretty.

Mapping the manosphere

When people talk about the “manosphere,” they’re basically talking about a vast, diverse network of blogs and forums that take a certain antagonistic stance toward women and dating. Not all branches of the manosphere are overtly appalling; not all of them are even run by men. That said, their core philosophy basically boils down to this: (1) feminism has overrun/corrupted modern culture, in violation of nature/biology/inherent gender differences, and (2) men can best seduce women (slash, save society in general) by embracing a super-dominant, uber-masculine gender role, forcing ladies to fall into step behind them.

This philosophy plays out differently in different places. Hundreds of Web sites are dedicated to teaching “game” to hapless daters. But often, if not always, “game” involves reducing women to sexual targets, rating their attractiveness on a scale of 1 to 10, and deploying techniques like “negging” to get a girl to notice you. (“Negging” = insulting a woman to throw off her confidence. For instance: “Your hair is hideous. Is that a wig?”)

The blog Chateau Heartiste, one of the forerunners in the manosphere/PUA scene, even publishes quizzes for men and women to determine their “dating market value.” The questions for men include, “What is your occupation?” and “Have people besides your family called you funny?” The questions for women include, “How long are your legs in relation to your height?” (Long: +1 point; average: 0 points; short: -1 point.)

It’s rude, of course. And it’s a painfully cynical way to interpret interpersonal relationships. But taken to extremes, that belief in retro gender roles has fueled a whole system of sites that denigrate women and advocate for a socio-cultural regression that puts ladies back in the kitchen and bedroom. Sometimes these sites brand themselves as dating sites; others proudly fly the “Men’s Rights” flag, in solidarity with a movement that essentially claims guys have it rough, too. (Important note: MRA sometimes, though not always, describes a push to reform divorce, visitation and alimony laws — clearly separate issues from what we’re addressing here.)

In either case, the “manosphere” is frequently enough to make any progressive lady — or guy! — choke back bile. The Southern Poverty Law Center, which identifies hate groups, even went so far as to publish a report on it in 2012. (“Although some of the sites make an attempt at civility and try to back their arguments with facts,” the report read, “they are almost all thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express.”) The very next year, the comically named Return of Kings — which has, among other things, talked up eating disorders and hitting women — topped our list of the most-hated sites on the Web.

Manosphere doctrine, in a nutshell

To most people, it’s probably not difficult to see why the manosphere offends. At the most basic level, much of that community advocates for inequality between men and women, a problem called out by the SPLC report. In the U.S., at least, that’s not generally a value that the mainstream rallies around.

The manosphere doesn’t just preach inequality between men and women, however. I’ve spent more than a year observing several large sites within this community, and its ideology regarding the “right” kinds of men and women is pretty inflexible, too. Gay, lesbian or transgendered people are, needless to say, completely out. “Masculine” women (i.e. women with short hair, women with high-powered jobs, women with outspoken opinions) also earn the manosphere’s derision. But the community reserves a special kind of disdain for “effeminate” or “beta” men — men who either do not have “game” or who are still taking what believers call the “blue pill.”

Per the blog Red Pill Room — where, needless to say, betas aren’t welcome — the blue pill is like a metaphor for the mainstream mindset:

The subconscious pattern of behaviors, often informed by feminism, feminists and mainstream society, that encourages men to forego traditionally and truly masculine behavior and attitudes in favor of those in which capitulation to female whimsy.

In other words, red-pilled men are alphas who have seen the light and seized the sex/power/glory owed to them by their biology. Blue-pilled guys
are the hapless, sexless dummies still treating women as equals and asking them out in conventional, non-pushy ways.

This distinction, while it sounds ridiculous, is actually pretty critical to understanding Rodger and his place in the manosphere … such as it was. While Rodger evidently followed a number of pick-up sites and YouTube channels, his most notable postings were on a site called PUAhate — a forum for malcontents complaining that the “game” didn’t work. There, and on other forums, Rodger identified as an “incel, or “involuntary celibate” — a virgin who couldn’t get girls, even after taking “the red pill.” On the manosphere totem pole, there’s nothing quite so pathetic. Besides women, anyway.

The manosphere reacts to Rodger

And so, while some of Rodger’s companions on PUAhate have praised his gruesome spree — Josh Glasstetter at SPLC points out that he was almost
seen as some kind of “incel revolutionary” — the rest of the manosphere has worked hard to distance themselves from him.

“Rodger pings some operational gaydars,” mocks Heartiste.

“A lot of loneyy beta males will identify with him,” Roosh followed up. (Notice that he calls Rodger a beta, despite Rodger’s videotaped insistence that he was “an alpha male.”)

Rodger blames women. Women blame misogyny. Misogynists blame feminists. This is a fascinating, weird cycle — and it actually repeats after most national tragedies in which a man kills a woman or women. In 2009, when George Sodini killed three women at an L.A. Fitness outside of Pittsburgh, Heartiste was quick to postulate that, had Sodini “learned game,” he never would have developed negative feelings toward women or become violent.

Meanwhile, a guest blogger on Return of Kings theorized in December that 18-year-old Karl Halverson Pierson killed a girl at his school because he was “sexually frustrated.” Another post on the site, published about the same time, blamed a “lack of game” for brutal murders everywhere from Baltimore to Southern California.

But Return of Kings’ latest post really takes the cake. “No one would have died if PUAHate killer Elliot Rodger learned game,” promises the ever-aggrandizing Roosh V, who then goes on to promise that “if Rodger came to me, he would have received actionable and effective advice.” (A sampling of recent advice from the site, presented without comment: “all women are nymphomaniacs who crave rough sex”; “if your girlfriend insists on a big wedding, dump her.”)

A moment of awakening for the manosphere, this incident is not. And in some ways, that should be just as disturbing as Rodger’s videotaped rant.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/05/27/inside-the-manosphere-that-inspired-santa-barbara-shooter-elliot-rodger/

nononono
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 02:59 am
@firefly,
Quote:
I have referred to the "manosphere"--and I used that term as it is currently understood


As it is currently "understood" by whom??? You mean like being understood by people with a prejudice against men? Or being understood by the biased mainstream media?

Firefly, the articles you post in support of your EXTREMELY distorted view of the MRM and quote unquote "men's SITES" have been refuted over and over again.

Every time I try to be nice to you or at the very least try to lower my boxing gloves a bit, you counter with some truly sexist horsehit. At one point I thought you might be articulate and intelligent. But the more I read your posts, the more I see how deeply sexist and prejudiced you are, and how DEEPLY stubborn you are to the point where you can't even admit that you were wrong about something like asserting that Eliot Rogers was involved in the MRM, when it's been proven over and over again that he wasn't.

Admitting when you make a mistake doesn't make you less of a person. It means you're a human being. Because human beings make mistakes (spelling/grammar mistakes included.) But honestly at this point I'm not altogether sure that you aren't suffering from some mild form of retardation or at least some kind of delusional disorder...

FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 03:27 am
@nononono,
Are there any sites as "Pick up Artists" for women?

Not being rude but I would have stated that too. "Men's sites" and I'm not sexist in anyway shape and form.

Here are the sites he visited:-

Pussy pass Forum
Purehate (to women
Bodybuilding for men
RooshvForum - his addy was Roger That - a men's forum

When passionate about something, anything gets up anyone's goat. And obviously you have a passion in that regard.

firefly
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 03:38 am
@nononono,
Sorry, being prejudiced against misogyny does not mean being prejudiced against men, no matter how hard you try to promote that fantasy.

Here's a site you'll realty love, it's run by a man and it's devoted to mocking misogyny and the manosphere. Enjoy. Laughing

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/

Quote:
But honestly at this point I'm not altogether sure that you aren't suffering from some mild form of retardation or at least some kind of delusional disorder...


Then by all means, ignore me. Don't respond to my posts if you consider them to be the product of an unsound mind.

Just keep talking, nononono, you're living proof of all that misogyny found on the manosphere, and the more you try to defend that anti-female conglomeration of sites, the more you sound just like them. Laughing

http://animated-gifs.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/tom-jerry-005.gif








FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 03:44 am
@firefly,
I only saw Hawks notes and looked it up, I need to scrap a whole lot of ex business of my computer or buy a new one, already purchased a Mother Board but have trouble opening links to videos........ But, what I read is this friend read the first 10 pages first and the rest after the event. Never the less, did you see the look on her face at the awards targeted at Elliot? A picture tells a thousand words. She was pissed off. Either, sick and tired of her work? Which got no-where or sick and tired. There was no empathy what so ever in her look at him... I honestly believe that she did say that to him, maybe out of anger.

Firefly, my ex was the best at this.. He was able to show one thing to everyone else and behind closed doors something different.

I think body language also speaks. I have no doubt that Elliot was "evil" when he stated that a woman should come to him, not the other way around, it begs to wonder why he would even go onto those sites to work out how to attract women.

A split personality? I don't think so. He knew how to hide. He did well with the cops all 7 of them on that day, they visited, he knew how to lie, he knew how to have people believe in him, whilst he had a hidden agenda.

Was she "nice?" If I read all that he stated, he was "afraid" to bring anyone home in the event that she put him down in front of them.

I can't see how that is a made up story.

I think this guy saw what he saw what she showed "him" but when she was with Elliot she could even have had women's intuition and saw what Peter ended up describing as "evil" and saw that and stated those words to him.

It's hard to ask the dead. What I do know is people can put on a front but behind closed doors be very different.

This guy was an on-line friend for the most part. How many times did he actually visit Elliot, not many and not many at all towards the end.

We see what we see .. Behind closed doors is very different.

If Peter saw "evil" when he read what he was reading pertaining to the forums, where did he state " and so, I realised that my son was not just suicidal but evil and so, I approached a,b,c and x for further advice on how to handle him.

I didn't read any of that in your answer there. Yet Elliot sent that way before he killed and destroyed including himself.

IDK FF. Something is not adding up .

Buttermilk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 04:03 am
@firefly,
Did you ******* read the article or read what you wanted to read?

Yes the article contradicts saying

"The image of women in the "Third World" generally, and of Muslim women in particular, in the West are very schematic and prejudiced. Marred by racism and ethnocentrism, attitudes towards Muslims have become harsher in recent years. The Muslim woman has been portrayed as submissive, oppressed, and backward. Mass media and educational systems have played a major role in the construction of this representation."

BTW the article yo posted http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/


is funny
Buttermilk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jul, 2014 04:11 am
LOL from firefly's link


0 Replies
 
 

 
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