Elliot Rodger

I'd like to just take a small detour then I'll retreat. I would like everyone to check out Richard Speck who killed 8 nursing students on July 13th, 1966. He gained entry with a switch blade and a gun he had stolen from a women he had raped earlier in the evening. I'm not sure how he managed it, but apparently the students didn't know about feminism and allowed him to bind them, then drag them one after another into another room, tortured, strangled, mutilated and killed them all night long. So one after another was led away, the remainder left to only to listen the torment he subjected to each women before he killed her. Nine women were bound awaiting slaughter, one managed to conceal herself under a bed while he took his time butchering young student nurses who hoped one day to help care for the sick and injured.

Please (I hate to use Wikipedia as the source) check it out. I was very young when this happened. These girls were in school to become nurses, in 1966, this was considered a noble profession. Actually it still is, everytime I've been hospitalized, if the nurses were not watching carefully, you might wind up with a toe tag.

So, if feminists are the reason that dip **** in California was denied his god given right to be pleasured by every female on the face of the earth, please explain why Richard Speck butcherd 8 students on July 13, 1966.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

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Hawkeye - you complained about victim culture, and then contribute to it.

wrong

Quote:

The collective did not make the blood flow, though their actions contributed to his decision - the personal responsibility for that decision rests with Rodger.

Individuals have responsibilities for their actions. Rodger failed. The collective has responsibilities to give individuals the tools to do that, and to monitor the ability to do that. THe collective failed. "make" is a very fine word to use here, because while we dont know exactly which individuals will explode in violence as the psychologically break down under the weight of the collectives neglect of them we know that some will, we know that we will pay for our failure in blood.

I love how you preach responsibility, but in your telling our collective responsibility to see to it that Elliot Rodger developed into adulthood with mental health in tack takes an extreme back seat to the responsibility this young man had to keep his twisted mind in check, and to get it straightened. This is messed up, as the adults always bear more of the responsibilities than the children, and the healthy more than the sick.

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@hawkeye10,

The Walters teaser has Pops doing some stating of the obvious which is useless, and still claiming that those around Elliot had no idea that he could be violent. The propensity for violence is still seemingly the only thing that matters, that this kid was a miserable **** who had no ability to manage his life and that no one seems to have had much interest in changing that is something that is rarely brought up. It goes to what I said earlier, young males who are deemed to have behavior issues or to be potentially violent are the only ones who get attention, which is why Elliot for so many years went under everyones radar, was as he said treated as a ghost. Even now pops does not understand why this was wrong, why helping his boy out of his misery was his responsibility, which he failed at, and why " but, but, but I ignored the problem because he did not seem dangerous" does not excuse his failure.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-peter-rodger-barbara-walters-isla-vista-interview-20140626-htmlstory.html

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@hawkeye10,

Don't you think in all that he presented "Elliot" that he showed more suicide than mass murder? The candle situation suggested nutter, the videos suggested according to his Mother suicidal thoughts, how can someone see a mass murder unless the follow "mass murders"..

We picked up on the fact "under an assumed name" he followed other mass murders they never knew his assumed name Hawk.

I personally, do feel that his Father did not give the guidance he needed, I read where they simply asked about sex and he said he had no inclination so I DO see a failure of talking about sex openly but this kid had problems beyond talking to, he had a distorted view on life , he was materialistic, he fantasized not in a good way, he saw his grandfather's efforts and put those into his thoughts of women being in a camp never being able to eat and to die, he had hatred, he was evil.. How the heck are parents meant to see evil especially if they don't understand it.. They saw what they saw and tired.

His Father's failure in my opinion was to teach him to be a boy/man/sex/ respect.

He saw his Father initially as a God, go you, new woman not long, to go failure she's a witch you are never there .....

Hate enough............. you lose it. End of story.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

The collective has responsibilities to give individuals the tools to do that..

What 'that' are you referring to? It's not clear.

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"make" is a very fine word to use here, because while we dont know exactly which individuals will explode in violence as the psychologically break down under the weight of the collectives neglect of them we know that some will, we know that we will pay for our failure in blood.

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maybe there was one main factor that drove his problems, maybe there was one main failure of the collective that made the blood flow.

No, 'made the blood flow' in relation to the collective is not a 'very fine word' - it removes personal responsibility, and shifts blame to 'the collective'...it's victim propaganda speak.

With a sense of responsibility, you would phrase it something like "maybe there was one main failure of the collective that contributed to the blood flowing"...accurate without seeking blame, or removing self responsibility.

Quote:

I love how you preach responsibility

To correct you - I talk about personal responsibility for who you are, for who you become, for your decisions, and for what you do.

In relation to mental illnesses, disorders, and impairments - this becomes a lot more difficult. That said - Aspergas is not a mental illness, but rather, a disorder (or perhaps an impairment). People with aspergas still know right & wrong. At the end, he may have developed delusions...or he may simply have wanted people to think he was delusional. If he was with it enough to say exactly the right things when police checked on him...is it delusions? (true delusions usually involve a loss of touch with reality...which then usually means you can't answer straight because your view of reality has warped)

You can understand, have empathy, see the difficulties...you can admit the contributing circumstances...without removing an individuals responsibility for their decisions.

What you are doing by not recognising this...is looking to blame.

Victim culture.
-----------------------------------------------

Also, may I point out that you haven't at all been talking about the failures in mental health, but the evils of feminism? They are two very different scenarios to what you complain about when I talk about personal responsibility.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

but in your telling our collective responsibility to see to it that Elliot Rodger developed into adulthood with mental health in tack takes an extreme back seat to the responsibility this young man had to keep his twisted mind in check, and to get it straightened. This is messed up, as the adults always bear more of the responsibilities than the children, and the healthy more than the sick.

This appears to deserve a separate response.

How do you completely miss me talking about 'contributing circumstances'? Every single time I talk about taking responsibility for your own decisions, I also talk about acknowledging the effects of contributing circumstances.

It's said that people hear things, and read things, in a way that supports their views...or allows them to ignore information that are contrary to their views.

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An important thing to note in regards to the feminist response to Elliot Rodger, was how pretty much EVERY feminist who weighed in on the matter mentioned that Eliot felt "entitled to women." How is that any different from fat, ugly feminists feeling entitled to be called or viewed as physically "beautiful"?

http://www.funniestmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Funniest_Memes_harsh-but-true-denial-101_4055.jpeg

Everywhere in the media these days you see this push for "body acceptance" or some such similar ridiculous terminology. This idea that society had better recognize all female body types as things of beauty. I find this very hypocritical for a number of reasons. For one thing, there has never been a push by the media for "fat acceptance" for males. In fact, overweight or flabby male bodies are unapologetically portrayed in the media at large as a source of comedy. Also I find it laughably hypocritical that many if not most of these media outlets that are pushing for "fat acceptance" for women often only hire good looking female news anchors who have what most would consider thin, attractive bodies. I mean, I hope the ironic/mixed message of a good looking, thin woman telling viewers that they had better accept all body types as beautiful isn't lost on people.

A big part of feminist ideology is this idea that women deserve affirmation CONSTANTLY. Simply because they're female they have automatic value, without even doing anything to earn that value.

Men are told to not "slut shame" but also to not "objectify". This is a hypocritical message. So it's totally OK for you to act like a slut, but if we treat you like a slut then we're at fault?

Feminism is all about bullying men.

Blame men, blame the media, but exonerate women of any and all responsibility and accountability.

1 Reply

@nononono,

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Everywhere in the media these days you see this push for "body acceptance" or some such similar ridiculous terminology.

AKA " NO STANDARDS"....A push that we have been on for a long while. This is how every child got to be above average.

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So it's totally OK for you to act like you really really want the dick, but we give it to you we're at fault?

FIXED

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Quote:
So it's totally OK for you to act like you really really want the dick, but we give it to you we're at fault?

FIXED

Hahahaha!

just inhaled beer through my nose! Laughing

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@FOUND SOUL,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10856071/Elliot-Rodgers-father-breaks-silence-on-nightmare-of-mass-murderer-son.html

Quote:

The British father of mass killer Elliot Rodger has said he didn't think his son could "hurt a flea".

He said: "Every night I go to sleep, I wake up and I think of those young men and young women that have died and are injured and were terrorised when my son did that. My son caused so much pain and suffering for so many families.

"It's like a reverse nightmare situation. When you go to sleep normally you have a nightmare and you wake up and 'Oh, everything's OK'. Now I go to sleep, I might have a nice dream. And then I wake up and slowly, the truth of what happened dawns on me. And you know, that is that my son was a mass murderer."

Mr Rodger added: "There is no way I thought that this boy could hurt a flea. I mean, this is the most unbelievable thing. What I don't get is that we didn't see this coming at all."

I'm not happy at all with his response.

1. He calls him "this boy".
2. He has nice dreams and then wakes in reality.
3. "We" didn't see this coming at all.
4. He does call him "my son" but in reference to what he did.

I don't think anyone can "for-see" a Mass Murderer. But, he emailed his hate comments, what he would like to do to people "to his parents" . They should have seen it, they can't now say they didn't unless they didn't bother reading any of his posts. The people on the Forum commented "before" the killings " he sounds like he's going to commit mass murder". He sent them what they needed to see to stop him. They didn't.

His Father was not there. He left it to his new wife to deal with and Elliot's Mother saw "something" she just couldn't put her finger on it but called the Police on him.

1 Reply

@FOUND SOUL,

More interesting is his story ".we never got a diagnosis so we could not have known".

What? After all of the checks you wrote to head shrinkers and assorted other counselors for him, after the wife claimed in the divorce a diagnosis, you " could not have known"???

Where is the wife now, I have seen nothing from her. Makes me wonder if maybe she is not so shocked.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Where did you read that Hawk? I know that one of his Doctors wanted to put him on medicine if you recall, but Elliot refused to take it after reading the side effects and his diagnosis was pretty spot on.. But as FF points out, Elliot was 22 and so, his parents couldn't force anything on him. I'd call that a diagnosis .

I'd say the "wife's take on Elliot" he saw, the Father as being a way to obtain more money from him and so, he would have ignored that but, Elliot was 7 at the time. They sure went through Doctors thereafter so he had to have know something was more wrong than awkwardness. However, I don't believe they "knew" he was going to be a mass murderer "until Elliot pointed them to the on-line Forum, at that point, they either looked and thought he was attention seeking, didn't look at all or didn't think about it after looking at it. If I as a parent saw people stating he looked like a mass murderer in the making which was stated on that Forum, I'd be doing something real quick.

He has to live with this for the rest of his life. He left everything up to his "new" wife, she has to also live with herself and by all accounts she's lucky she's still alive. I get that they concentrated on awkwardness, but his own friend told his Mother who told Elliot's Mother something wasn't right. Surely, the apartment Manager also told Elliot's parents that the boys had planned to move as they found Elliot strange, I don't know I just don't feel that his Father had the finger in the pie, rather delegated across to everyone else and left it at that.

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@glitterbag,

I wouldn't go that far, but I tend to think feminist tend to seek victimization in certain instances where there is none, as in the case with Elliot Rodger. This former incident, as by some, was labeled, a quiet issue of the victimization of women, was not, and is not, an issue of women, rather an issue of a man with deep seeded psychiatric issues.

Unfortunately, both men and women of today, do not truly understand what TRUE feminism is, and most people often get their perception of feminism from female sensationalists who capitalize off certain issues (Gloria Alred comes to mind). So since this incident, a lot of young men are blaming feminists haphazardly because female analysts have been in the media giving off this impression that MEN are the antagonists in this situation.

I still am of the opinion that although contemporary feminism seeks to exploit the continual issues women still today, there are still some (feminist) who only have selective outrage on certain social issues yet remain quiet on others. In my other thread which most of you again overlooked (how convenient since threads with little intellectual voracity get more responses than mine), I highlighted that since Jeremy Meeks' popularity had arisen, women have given Meeks a platform by objectifying him and in essence rewarding him by overlooking his 6 felonies.

According to Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter, raping a woman's vagina is ok, so long as you have a chiselled facial structure, and colored eyes. Or breaking and entering someone's house is ok as long as you're gorgeous looking.

This is why in my thread I said it would have been great that a respectable feminist should have spoken out to educate both men and women, on that our standard of beauty being symptomatic of the kind of socity we live in, should not supercede the misdeeds of people who commit serious crimes. This whole situation has given women the label of being as shallow as men by employing the same double standards of objectification that so many women's rights activists have fought against.

1 Reply

I was an earlyish feminist and still am for equal rights for women. I've no interest in academic feminism, have dozens of other interests: have not read their books, fifty plus years on. I do remember one book, pre Friedan - whose book I tossed at the time, since back then, I still was somewhat religious and thought women should obey the husband.. I got over that. The pre-Friedan, or maybe similarly timed, book was the 1962 or maybe 1963 publication by MCAT about U.S. area medical schools and admissions for each. By far the majority of schools accepted no women, another batch 1 or 2 0r 3 in classes of perhaps 75-90, and one, a women's med school, of course, all women.
That changed around the time of the civil rights act, and changed more later, I guess with title whatever. All too late for me and my peers.

You call against feminists for not decrying some crap in 2014 on a website that I've no interest in participating in. Females can be attracted to glitter, as can men. Decrying that is a waste of all of our time, it will always happen, and people will learn the hard way.

Why don't you decry it yourself? No, you want to slam feminists (some of them are men) as some kind of coherent grouping with duty to be watchers.

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@ossobuco,

As I've said before I'm not necessarily against the idea of feminism, I just think feminism conceptually, does not address the ills women face. Contempoary feminism is westernized, and because it is such western feminism seeks to change the dynamics of other cultures. A good example is Islamic dress. Often times western feminist believe the Hijab is repressive, yet they (western feminists) remain silent on nuns clothing, or the covering of hair of Jewish women.

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Quote:

A family friend of Elliot Rodger who was enlisted to help him meet girls is speaking out about the 'virgin killer,' saying he was 'broken from conception,'
Elliot's father, Hunger Games Assistant Director Peter Rodger, asked his friend Dale Launer, the writer and director of such romantic comedies as 'Love Potion No. 9' and 'Blind Date,' to help coach his 22-year-old son.
Mr Launer, who Rodger named in his rambling manifesto published online, has revealed to the BBC that confidence wasn't Elliot's problem.
'At one point I sat down and asked him "Do you think you’ve got problems with your looks?" And he said, "No, I think I’m magnificent."'
Rodger killed six people in a murderous rampage near the University of California - Santa Barbara on May 23 before taking his own life in a shootout with police. He claimed in an online manifesto that he was seeking revenge on 'girls' who 'rejected him' and refused to have sex with him.
Among his victims were Katherine Cooper, 22, and Veronika Weiss, 19, who were gunned down outside their sorority house.
Mr Launer said he met with Rodger for three for four 'sessions' to coach him to try to talk to women. But, it became increasingly clear the Elliot's social problems - and his incredible vanity were hampering any progress

'Each time I had to index my expectations lower and lower. He’s not just a normal shy kid,' the director and screenwriter told the BBC World Service.
He recalled one incident in which he gave Rodger 'homework' - to say something nice to a woman in the street and keep walking.
'Her hair or her sunglasses or her dress, anything. And you've just given her a free compliment and she'll think about it for the rest of the day,' Mr Launer explained.

The assignment didn't go over well with Rodger.
'He said, "Why do I have to compliment them, why don’t they compliment me?"'
It soon became clear that Elliot was deeply troubled, Mr Launer said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2680690/He-broken-conception-Director-Love-Potion-No-9-tried-teach-Elliot-Rodger-meet-women-says-virgin-killer-thought-magnificent.html#ixzz36evALRV6
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But pops had no way to know, he says. Ya right, he knew.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

No parent is going to admit that they had an inkling, especially to themselves let alone the World.

I don't know of one parent either, of any Mass Murderer that saw it coming, what they did see was that their child was "not altogether there" but Elliot was extremely intelligent and knew how to hide things, such as his virginity where he claimed he didn't even think about sex, yet he did, not only did he think about it, he acted on it, privately.

I think Elliot's Father refused to believe there was anything at all wrong with his son, other than shyness and awkwardness and refused to believe anything told to him otherwise. Why? Because he was his "son" a man to be, should turn out like him?

If Dale advised him he wasn't shy at all, he felt woman should swoon him and was deeply troubled (something we keep reading from various people) when was this? Elliot's Father more than likely saw that as "ego" not a mass murderer.

I doubt that he did see "that" coming. But, I feel as if Peter spent his entire time pawning his son off to various people, yes in a bid to help him but I don't believe he was there for him, himself as a Father, role model, male figure. I believe he pawned him off to everyone including his new wife to deal with.

My point is I think if Peter had been more of a Father if you recall "they asked me about sex" not his Father, perhaps, just perhaps, Elliot wouldn't have wondered alone in the World creating more and more fantasies, joining more and more Forums, getting madder and madder, alone.

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@Buttermilk,

I was raised by nuns in habits and just about when I got out of high school, thank god (et al), don't get me going on that place, nuns in general were changing, a starter group being the nuns at Immaculate Heart in LA.
They were rad in a lot of ways, and, if I remember, challenging the antique cardinal, and also having Sr. Corita on board with her art.

I also wore mantillas to church. I sort of liked those, but

as it happened, I got in a theological fight via newspaper reading with a later on pope and sided with the guy he vanquished, Hans Kuhn. The pope was Benedict.
I had an epiphany past the argument - I didn't believe any of it, all construction all the time.

On hijab, I am not happy about it, but they didn't ask me.

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@Buttermilk,

I can only assume you were addressing someone else since your remarks have nothing even remotely related to my post.

Regarding how many people visit or post on a thread you've started, unless it shows up on 'new posts' folks may miss it. I've started threads that no one responded to, I don't take it personally. But, regarding views on women, I would be a lot more sympathetic to your opinions if you were a woman. I won't try to tell you what it feels like to have an enlarged prostate, so please don't tell me what it should feel like to be a woman or even a young girl.

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

My views are I go by what I see, and in today's age many have twisted views, if you define you're womanhood by pieces of your anatomy have at it, but I'm more than a prostate.

1 Reply

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