glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 11:02 pm
@firefly,
I agree with firefly, but we have a whole pot load of maladjusted people out there. In the last 5 years we have seen multiple school shootings, horrible atrocities that I thought were only committed by Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Oliver North and the current leader of North Korea. We don't have adequate treatment for nihilists, just ponder the reasons trying to figure out why. I don't really have any answers, but too many young folks have an exaggerated sense of entitlement, too many people of all ages take no responsibility for their actions, and in general people are far too rude.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 11:11 pm
@nononono,
nononono wrote:

Quote:
and without hot blond beauty, a woman had low market value in his mind, and was therefore insignificant to him.


I think you're partially right that he wished to be seen with a good looking woman to assert his "status", but I bet you anything that if he would've been banged properly (even once) by (even a non-blonde) lady who knew how to make things fun, that it would've altered his views at least a TINY bit. Perhaps that tiny bit would've made SOME difference. I'm just saying...



Wow, that is the dumbest thing you have ever written. You need to apologize to the fantasy you believe would have cured that cretin. Have you even considered how you would feel if your tall 12 year old daughter had been slaughtered in that nut bags revenge fantasy???? No, of course not, it can't happen to your children, just other folks children who happened to be out in their element while Randy Rodgers was seeking revenge for his own inadequacies. If he had been more boinkable, maybe your mother, sister or daughter could have serviced him into submission.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 11:11 pm
Rodger (like many others) was sucked into the world and it's sickening false values that are pumped into us by parents, teachers and society, and it eventually got to him and pushed him over the edge.
Hence a main theme of Christianity is to REJECT THE WORLD and don't become trapped in it, but many (including him) haven't the toughness to be able to do that.
Jesus said:- "The world wants you to dance to its tune......God has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners...to release the oppressed" (Matt 11:16/17,Luke 4:18 )
"Don't conform to the pattern of this world" (Rom 12:2)
"Don't love the world or the things in it" (1 John 2:15-17)
"Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth" (Col 3:2)
"A friend of the world is the enemy of God" (James 4:4)
"You were dead when you followed the ways of the world" (Eph 2:1/2)
"don't keep submitting to its rules" (Col 2:20)
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil" (Eph 6:12)


Jesus said-
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/jesu-pash.png~original
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 11:16 pm
@nononono,
The fact you are being bolstered by that British moron should make you reconsider your simplistic tortured logic. And no, that's not inconsistent. The Brits, Aussies, Canucks, and Yanks all hope that idiot is posting illegally in an English speaking territory that can't actually vote for anything other than dog catcher, mainly because no one would vote for him even for chamber pot scrubber .
nononono
 
  0  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 11:35 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
The fact you are being bolstered by that British moron should make you reconsider your simplistic tortured logic. And no, that's not inconsistent. The Brits, Aussies, Canucks, and Yanks all hope that idiot is posting illegally in an English speaking territory that can't actually vote for anything other than dog catcher, mainly because no one would vote for him even for chamber pot scrubber .


Ok, I'm American. I don't really understand what you're saying here at all. Maybe that's because I'm American? I guess I'm not sure..

And you misinterpreted my other post. I'm not saying AT ALL that sex would've cured him. I'm just saying that perhaps it would've CALMED SOMETHING inside of him. I can only speak from experience, and I know that it calmed something inside of me.

It's very hard for women to understand this. Because women simply can't see the world from behind the eyes of the other gender who is treated as (largely) disposable and undesirable. It's a BASIC human feeling that is left unfulfilled for a vastly larger number of men than women.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2014 11:47 pm
@nononono,
But he wasn't interested in any female that wasn't a beautiful hot white skinned blond--that was a definite part of his problem.

He set up an idealized fantasy he wanted gratified and became obsessed with it. He felt entitled to it. And in doing that, he doomed himself to frustration.

One of his former roommates, I think his name was Seymour, or something like that, was not a particularly attractive male according to Elliot, but yet even Seymour had a girlfriend he brought to their room for sex. Elliot was very envious and angry that even a "nothing" like his roommate was enjoying sex, but he disparaged the girlfriend as being "ugly"--which meant she wasn't worth having in Elliot's mind--and that caused a conflict with his roommate.

There are plenty of girls, nice ordinary looking girls, who have trouble getting dates, just as ordinary guys do, who want relationships and sex, just as guys do, and they aren't looking for an Adonis. And they feel frustrated and depressed too about not being able to connect with anyone. You are wrong in thinking females have an easier time of it than males.

But Elliot wouldn't have been interested in those ordinary average girls, or in bedding them. It would have been beneath him--the way he considered a simple retail job "beneath me." He had a specific fantasy in mind--an idealized fantasy--of a beautiful hot white-skinned blond and a life of sex and pleasure with her--and he wasn't about to settle for anything else.

And he expected this fantasy to be rather magically gratified. In his imagination, this beautiful hot blond would just walk up to him and say, "I want to be your girlfriend," and his life of sex and pleasure would follow, and they'd live happily ever after. That was about the level of his thinking--and he couldn't tolerate the frustration that this fantasy wasn't being fulfilled. It was driving him nuts.

I also think that he probably gave off vibes of being strange, and that would have stopped average looking girls from initiating contact with him.

I also think he might have had hang-ups about sex that might have prevented him from enjoying it with anyone. Masturbation and sexual fantasies were under his control, but I think he was very ambivalent about having actual sexual intercourse with a female. I think that's part of the reason he was so embarrassed about being a virgin--I think he felt it signaled his sexual problems/inadequacies to other men, and not just his inability to attract females.

I think he may well have struggled with issues about his own sexuality or "manliness"--and females indirectly confirmed that for him by not even noticing him--and when he went to that party where he got beaten up, the men taunted him with names like "faggot" and "pussy". That's why he resorted to violence to prove he was "the real Alpha male"--I think he had to prove it to himself.

Just getting laid, even if he "got banged properly" would not have solved his problems. He had all kinds of issues. I'm not even sure it would have "calmed" anything inside of him, it might have triggered even more anxieties about his general feelings of inadequacy.



glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 12:26 am
@nononono,
I'm also an American, a women and yes sex releases tensions for women just fine. And if your partner is engaged, its sublime. I think you made a big mistake assuming the 'flavor of the month' sexual accommodation would have staved off his urges to destroy. I think that's pretty obvious, I can't speak for everyone's sexual needs, but you do have to make an effort if you're seeking gratification. Well not as hard as men perhaps, as a women, if you lower your standards you could get your tensions cared for every four hours. I think you stepped in a pile of poo, the notion that temporary gratification would have done what, stalled his slaughter for how long, a month? That's not good enough, the fact is his Parents tried intervention, but since he was over 18 he slipped under the radar. Even the police walked away thinking his Mom and Dad were helicopter parents.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 12:42 am
@glitterbag,
Perhaps your notion of good sex is stunted because you've been rejected. I know lots of women discarded after putting their husbands thru medical school or assisting them in their business, crap, providing the marriage with children, only to be left behind because the lump they loved and supported into success suddenly realized they were too successful to be married to a woman their own age. Ergo, trophy wives.

If you think I don't understand how easily some men are aroused, let me remind you once again, I am a women. I love men, I understand the differences between males and females. I have raised boys, I have nephews. Girls are not Madonna/whores and boys are not just hairy girls with deeper voices.
0 Replies
 
Buttermilk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 01:24 am
@firefly,
You're doing a lot of diagnosing online. One of the commorbity's to Asperger syndrome is major depressive disorder which is I'm sure what this man was suffering from. Alas you're making it sound like this young kid had a rational mind.
Buttermilk
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 01:25 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Shut up you religious racist ****
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 02:21 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
IF Peter had gotten him the said blonde girl,
then presumably, his relief wud have ultimated in no murders in Isla Vista; that wud have been better.


For a normal person perhaps. For a Mentally Ill person, I don't agree. He had his own "relief" daily as a teenager he knew how to relieve.

"IF" he scored that blonde and it may have happened, right time, right place, alcohol (and Elliot I believe drank heaps) as his medication, if he scored and then she refused to see him again, the same result would have occurred, rejection. She doesn't want me, she was drunk.

You need to perhaps consider thinking outside the square box.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 02:22 am
@boomerang,
Sorry Boomerang, just read your reply which is a simular thought pattern to mine.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 02:31 am
@nononono,
Quote:
older men too I guess; the 40 year old virgin maybe?).


Why not women? Who's husband cheated on them and so, for 20+ years their self esteem was low coupled with not just wanting sex and so, living their lives a born again virgin until they die, I know of two.

Who entices the younger women for sex?

I also know of a 40 year old virgin who had other mental problems, I befriended him on face-book don't ask why, after he gave his heart felt on another Forum. He told me he would commit suicide, I spent hours upon hours over a good year trying to be a "friend".. And, talk him out of it, though for what he wrote about what he did, or should I say "wanted to do" I am not sure why. Bottom line, he committed suicide. People do. Loads of people do, but they don't always take people out with them.

https://www.google.com.au/?gws_rd=ssl#q=adelaide+man+shot+today+in+the+city&tbm=nws

This guy was just shot today after closing our entire city, with multiple cops armed looking for him. He was an ex- correctional officer who decided to live the life of those he was "looking after", from I believe 2004.. This guy got away with murder as far as time spent in jaol and parole and again back in jaol, this time he had a gun. He shot himself, wait for it, after he let the hostages go....... 13hr siege, our states most wanted man...

This is about mental illness.

0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 02:40 am
@firefly,
Quote:
You are wrong in thinking females have an easier time of it than males.


I obviously don't have "proof", but I'm 99.99% sure that you're female firefly.

There is no way I'm going to get you to understand this, but I'm male. I'm in my 30's, and I still jerk it constantly. To weird things that wouldn't make sense to a female. But when I'm jerking it, I'M THINKING ABOUT FEMALES.

You are NEVER going to understand how amazingly beautiful and mesmerizing women really are until you can play with yourself and think about it.

Have you ever just wanted to smell a dude? Have you?!?!?

Well, there are PLENTY of females that I've just felt GRATEFUL that I got a sense of their scent. Because women just emit these natural pheromones that are POWERFUL. Younger women, older women, skinnier women, fatter women; it doesn't matter! There's something in you ladies that is ******* AWESOME! And it emotes from you. Men just don't have that. Not in the same way at least.

Quote:
There are plenty of girls, nice ordinary looking girls, who have trouble getting dates, just as ordinary guys do, who want relationships and sex, just as guys do, and they aren't looking for an Adonis.


You are absolutely wrong here.

One example I can think of that I feel can't be disputed (and I don't consider this racist, I consider it TRUE), is that good looking, VERY fit black men seem to LOVE overweight white women. I'm sorry but I've seen this over and over again. I can't think of ANY example like this that bears true in the favor of overweight white men.

Quote:
But Elliot wouldn't have been interested in those ordinary average girls, or in bedding them. It would have been beneath him--the way he considered a simple retail job "beneath me." He had a specific fantasy in mind--an idealized fantasy--of a beautiful hot white-skinned blond and a life of sex and pleasure with her--and he wasn't about to settle for anything else.


Again, I'm assuming that you're female. You just don't understand. I know when I was a virgin I had very specific ideals about what I thought my "ideal" girl was... and then I met someone who wasn't like that AT ALL. And she fucked me so much and so good, that I forgot all about my preconceived notions of what "ideal" was. I loved her so much, but I probably wouldn't have given her a second look if she hadn't have been as cool as she was; if she hadn't had have been able to overlook my own social inadequacies. We're still friends to this day even though our paths separated a long time ago...


Quote:
I also think that he probably gave off vibes of being strange, and that would have stopped average looking girls from initiating contact with him.


I was one of those "strange" guys when I was younger. A lot of people didn't understand that I had a lot stuff going on in my personal life, and that stuff made me socially awkward. I got a LOT better with people when I got older, but I've never forgotten what it was like being an "outcast". It fuckin' hurts!

I had a lot of anger when I was in high school. I still get angry now sometimes, but now I can laugh most of it off. There's a story in a book by Stephen King (not to drag him down at all because I adore him as writer) about a student who kills a bunch of people in his school. I remember us boys passing it around like it was the bible or something during middle school. My point is that there are MANY frustrated young men out there. They need guidance, patience, understanding, empathy, and humor. This specific issue is one that affects males. Women don't get an input as far as I'm concerned because they will never be able to walk a mile in a young man's shoes. Same reasoning why I don't believe I should get any say in women's reproductive rights...
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  2  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 02:41 am
@firefly,
Quote:
he feared death, he really didn't want to die


We've written simular things throughout all of this in how we see it but I'd love to know where you gained this opinion quoted, interesting.

Quote:
His killing spree was his final temper tantrum over not getting what he wanted


And attempting to cut off their heads to roll down the street which I doubt the Police will ever confirm, they just state something "lighter" this isn't temper tantrum is this part of wanting to be famous do you think? I do.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 02:43 am
@nononono,
Firefly
Quote:
and without hot blond beauty, a woman had low market value in his mind, and was therefore insignificant to him.


Quote:
I think you're partially right that he wished to be seen with a good looking woman to assert his "status",


In-correct. He "only" only, wanted the blonde bombshells based on his childhood crush. If he was interested in black, pink, purple, he could have been laid. He wanted the blonde bombshell you need to read his 140 pages it's there in black and white. You are talking general, sorry, not about Elliot.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 02:48 am
@Buttermilk,
Quote:
Alas you're making it sound like this young kid had a rational mind.


Intelligent. Asperger syndrome or Autism, we just have to look at the intellects who have had this illness. Amazing, smart, people better than us in some cases.

There was more to Elliot than a simple illness, he seemed to have more than one in my opinion and I also believe strongly that the last 12 months plus, from being on hate forums of women, gave him that confidence to carry through the ending.

Only we will never be able to totally read what happened, as 18,000 members on one is now closed and the others have been dramatically edited.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 03:13 am
@FOUND SOUL,
He repeatedly said he really didn't want to die, and that he feared death. He said that even while he was buying the lottery tickets. He kept hoping that something would happen, like winning the lottery, so he wouldn't have to die, He was very ambivalent about suicide. And he knew if he carried out his plan, he'd have to commit suicide because he didn't want to go to prison.

We differ on the reasons for his obsession with blonds. You relate it to that little girl, I relate it to his hang-ups with his own bi-racial identity, and with the entire issue of race for him--he looked down on non-white men, and considered them inferior to him--but he saw himself as being at a disadvantage to white men in terms of being able to get a beautiful white girl. I think he saw being white as higher status.

One thing I found interesting, and you might too, is the fact that it didn't upset him that neither of his father's wives were white. He simply admired the fact his father could get another girlfriend so soon after the divorce.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 03:22 am
@glitterbag,
Rodger's parents had tried to get help for him, he had been seen by a psychiatrist, and he was under the care of 2 psychologists just prior to the shooting. He hadn't slipped under the radar--he made sure the radar couldn't detect him.

His parents didn't realize how non-functional he was at college. He really wasn't taking classes or completing coursework for quite some time. He'd register for a few classes and then not attend them after 3 weeks. I'm not sure he even did the work for the online courses he signed up for. For at least a year, I'm under the impression he let his parents shell out money for tuition, his apartment, and his living expenses when he really wasn't attending college. He did a lot of concealing from them. He wasn't interested in getting an education any longer--he wanted to remain at college so he could try, one last time, to fulfill his fantasies of "sex and pleasure." and that's all he was obsessed with. And this was the third college he tried--he couldn't manage taking even a few courses at the first two, even while living at home. This was all an exercise in futility. His pervasive developmental and psychological problems interfered with his ability to function in a college setting--particularly if he lived away from home. And it really was time for everyone to admit that.

He lied to his father about the circumstances that led to his being beaten up and having his ankle broken. But when his father took him back home, at that point, they should have kept him at home. He was at home while his ankle healed, and he did emotionally better out of the stressful environment of college, and his parents should have refused to pay for him to continue attending. I think he was giving off enough signs at that point that he was in deep emotional trouble, and I think they should have realized that he couldn't function on his own, and they shouldn't have let him return to school, even though that would have provoked a major tantrum from their son.

I realize that Elliot cried, and pleaded, and manipulated them to let him go to school in Santa Barbara in the first place, but it clearly wasn't working out. They had no reason to believe he was becoming homicidal, but they knew he was extremely miserable and unhappy, he was calling them constantly crying, and he was starting to abuse alcohol, and they could see he was drinking too much--some of it he did in front of his mother. So, they should have been concerned about suicide, and his being overwhelmed by the social stress of being at college, and they should have realized he needed to be back at home where they could keep a better eye on him. The experiment in trying to give him more independence wasn't working out--it was making him worse.

I think Elliot had been pretty difficult to live with before he went to Santa Barbara, and most of that fell on his mother. Having him away at school made everyone else's life a little easier, they didn't have to deal with listening to his misery on a daily basis. And I do think they were trying to do their best for him, in terms of being supportive, and trying to foster some independence. But the fact he had gotten himself so badly beaten up should have sounded clear alarm bells for them--and they should have prevented him from going back to school at that point.

Months later, when his mother was alarmed enough to have the welfare check done, regardless of the assurances from the police that he was fine, his mother should have followed her gut instincts, gotten ahold of his father, and they should have gone to the school and insisted he come home. At that point, he did have 3 guns in his room, that they didn't know about, but I don't think he would have used them on his parents. But I think they had enough reason to bring him back home, simply because they were worried he might hurt himself. And maybe they would have found the guns if he had to pack up to leave.

Maybe they were reluctant to bring him back home because they weren't sure what to do with him next. The same pattern had been going on since high school--he went to 3 high schools because of his difficulties with social functioning, anxiety, and depression. Now he was at his third college, and he was over 21. What does a parent do next?

I don't know that either medication or therapy could have really helped him much. He didn't have the sort of problems that are at all easy to treat, and his basic core problems might have been untreatable. Supportive therapy might have helped to keep him afloat a little, medication might have given a little symptom relief, but I can't think of anything that would have really helped him to function more adequately socially, or deal with frustration more resiliently, or would have made him more capable of accepting that his life, and future, was probably, realistically, going to be much more limited than he wanted it to be.
I think he suffered from a constellation of problems that conventional methods of treatment simply can't successfully address with anything more than possibly a Band-Aid. I think that was true of Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook shooter too.

I don't think he would have benefited from hospitalization, except at the end, simply to stop his rampage, but without the evidence of his guns, and his manifesto, there would have been no reason to admit him for an emergency psych hold.

Perhaps there are residential treatment settings that might have afforded him a more comprehensive therapeutic/psychiatric approach, and better socialization programs, to more adequately prepare him for adult independent living, but I doubt he would have been willing to enter such a program.

The one place he didn't belong was on a college campus. He couldn't socially cope in that type of environment. And remaining in that type of environment, and trying to fit into that type of environment, really pushed him over the edge. Elliot's male counselor had suggested to him that he not go back to school after his ankle healed, Elliot insisted on going back. His parents should have stopped him. That's the only thing I think they might have done to help prevent this tragedy. And he still might have committed suicide had they done that.

I'm really not blaming his parents, or the mental health system, or the police. I do think his being able to easily obtain guns did help to create the perfect storm in this particular case, but he obtained them legally.

Sometimes you really can't prevent these things from happening. There is no crystal ball to show the future, and no magic wand you can wave to solve the problem.



0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2014 03:57 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
Only we will never be able to totally read what happened, as 18,000 members on one is now closed and the others have been dramatically edited.


Wayback machine might be of aid in that regards.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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