Elliot Rodger

Hi, How 's it going??

Did u see my post to u hereinbefore ?





David

I picked the name randomly because life is random.

But it seems it's turned out to be appropriate for this site...

Interesting links, although I really don't get the connection to feminism you seem to see. Mallory Millett is ranting about her sister, who happened to be a feminist, but she's not saying any mental illness her sister might have had influenced her work as a feminist in any way, and as far as her influence on psychiatry, Mallory is crediting her sister with influence she never had. Kate Millett may have jumped on an anti-psychiatry bandwagon, but she didn't start it, and it was well under way before she arrived.

The opposition to labeling people as mentally ill was primarily spearheaded by Dr. Thomas Szasz, who wrote the books, The Myth of Mental Illness in 1961 and The Manufacture of Madness 1970, and who was quite well known, and controversial, well before Kate Millett jumped on his bandwagon. Szasz opposed any civil involuntary confinement in mental hospitals for any grounds or reasons. He believed someone should be deprived of liberty and freedom only if they had committed a criminal offense--and then they should be incarcerated in a jail or prison. Obviously, his thinking influenced Kate Millett, based on what her sister says. But Szasz had many followers who agreed with him.

And Szasz really did not significantly influence the deinstitutionalization of psychiatric patients, nor certainly did Kate Millett. The hospitals had become huge warehouses, really sprawling institutions, some almost the size of small villages, where people had been confined for indefinite periods of time, without receiving any sort of medical treatment, except possibly ECT or Insulin Therapy --but most patients were receiving custodial care and little else. There were no medications available to treat mental illness. Then in 1950, Chlorpromazine was introduced, and that changed everything. Other drugs for treating psychosis then followed, and then drugs for depression . Because these drugs reduced psychotic and depressive symptomatology, the patients' behaviors improved, and these long term confinements were no longer necessary or justifiable. The shift to community based care began in the 1960's--Kate Millett had nothing to do with it. Keeping people locked up in hospitals for indefinite periods, and deprived of their freedom, just was no longer defensible, and it was expensive. Medication and supportive care could be provided in the community--so the hospitals were emptied out. Kate Millett didn't bring that about.

And the reasons for involuntary psychiatric observation or treatment in a hospital haven't changed much in the last several decades--a danger to self or others, or in such a disturbed/impaired state, due to mental illness. they clearly wouldn't be able to have regard for their own welfare. I don't know where Mallory Millett is coming from on this issue. When her sister unraveled during her speech at their movie premiere, she could have called the police, and they would have taken her sister to an ER for evaluation. And she could have done that when her sister was raging at her and threatening her. What couldn't be done then, or now, is insist that psychiatrists involuntarily admit someone to a hospital, unless the psychiatrists feel they meet certain criteria, and that's a valid civil rights issue, despite the frustration this can cause to families, like Kate Millett's.

From her sister's description, it sounds as though Kate Millett may have suffered from bi-polar disorder and would go into agitated manic states--and she would have benefited from medication, which she may have eventually gone on. But nothing Mallory Millett is saying should cause people to regard her sister, or her sister's work, any differently.

But, quite honestly, nothing Mallory Millett is saying makes much sense, and it's not at all factually accurate. And what she's saying really has nothing to do with either feminism or Elliot Rodgers, this seems to be her own personal rant, for her own personal reasons, against her sister.

Elliot Rodger's parents never tried to get him hospitalized. They were worried he might be suicidal, so his therapist arranged for the police to do a welfare check on him and he seemed fine when they saw him. There was nothing more the police could have done or should have done. He hadn't yet given indications he might present a danger to others. He was allegedly in treatment with two different therapists, it would be interesting to hear their appraisal of his dangerousness, but I doubt they are anxious to speak publicly--because everyone will start blaming them too.

Hindsight is 20/20, but until just before he acted, Rodger did not act as though he was a danger to others--he was able to conceal his plans, he was quite careful to conceal them. There was no reason, anyone had observed, to psychiatrically hospitalize him. This was as much a cold blooded, methodically planned, criminal killing spree as it was anything else. Elliot Rodger may have been disturbed, but he wasn't legally insane--he knew what he was doing, and he knew it was wrong, and he could have stopped himself from carrying out his crimes, if he had wanted to. Had he lived through it, he'd be in a prison, not a psych hospital.

So Mallory Millett doesn't know what the hell she is talking about. Truthfully, I wondered about her mental state, and her motivations for writing that piece.

And, I'm not sure why you thought those links were at all relevant, Finn.

Sorry for arriving late to this thread.

I was asked by my new friend OmSigDavid to make a medical insight about Elliot's mental status.

Before i begin. I must say i had to get my facts elsewhere since this thread became more a debate between anti male, feminism, mysoginia, and machism. I actually read huge chunks of the manifesto to be as clear and rational as i could. I will reserve my personal feelings about such document.

It is well known that the family of the perpretator claimed high functioning asperger. But close contacts to the family deny such diagnosis.

I do not think he has asperger syndrome. Using the actual criteria for diagnosis of Asperger listed on dsm iv and in the new dsm 5 (the bible of psychiatry) and using the information that Elliot gaves on his autobiography i do not find signs of the disease.

Asperger syndrome is chatacterized by a normal to over the mean intelligence with normal cognitive and pschycomotor devolopment during the first years of age. It is detected at during childhood when the child fails to devolop concistent relationship with family members and peers. The criteria stablished requieres that the child must have d ome kind of alteration of verbal communication. On his manifesto he fmdoes not fails to stablish relationship with other boys with the soley porpouse to be admired. He goes as far as learning a skill that temporarily grants him the popularity he dedires. Asperger kids live on their own constructed world. They lack the mirror neuron capacity to empathize but also to relate or to compare themselves to others. He constantly seeks aceptance and tries to become the center of atention of others persons without developing anxiety but gratification instead.

Also the other criteria of behavioral patterns, intetests, and activities that trend to be restrictive, repetitive and estereotipicals its not matched. He easily adapts to what he socialy recalls at desired to be popular. Changes cloths, dyes his hair, learns a skill. His big problems begun when women become part of the equation. But with other boys he find his way.

Asperger is falsely acused of being the mental cause. This young man clearly had a mental problem. But also was a spoiled, poorly rised, and overgrown bad behaved brat.

He matches better anothet diagnosis. Which is borderline petsonality disorder. And has hints of delusional thoughts more related to a small variant of schizofrenia.

First let me explain borderline petsonality disorder. Affective symptoms.. affective inestability with extreme reactivity of the mood (from calm to anxiety to depresion) .. unappropiate and intense anger with dificulty controlling it.. chronic symptoms of hollowness or uselesness .... Impulsive symptoms ... behaviors, intents or threats of suicide or automutilation ... unstable and intense interpersonal relationship pattern characterized by extremes of idealizations and devaluation .. impulsivity in at least 2 life aspects that can be potentialy harmful (sex, substance abuse, aberrant behavior, fights, etc) .... Interpersonal symptoms ... frenetic tries to avoid real or imaginary sense of being abandoned ... Selfperception alteration: selfimage or selfsense persistently unstable .... Cognocitive symptoms: temporary paranoid thoughts related to stresd or delusional symptoms (delusional - loss of contact with reality).

So my veredict, asperger is being falsely acused. Hope this meets your standards. Sorry for ortographical mistakes. In this moment i have no pc at hand and i had to use my smart phone.

Luismtzzz

WELCOME to the thread, Dr. Luis!

Thank u for your analysis.

Do u believe that Elliot was out-of-touch with reality
when he committed his murders ?

Do u think that medication woud have kept him peaceful ?

If it had been up to me, I 'd have prescribed a bordello for him-- stat !





David

Of course he was completely out of touch of reality he was delusional his mind living a reality apart from ours. But smart enough to mantain a sense of porpouse and planning.

But could a medication could have prevented the tragedy? Yes and no.

He was clearly very poorly treated.

WHO definition of Health
Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity.

He had a disease that needs a lot of familiar and personal support. That requieres an integrative approach to meet the high demand of reasurance a patient with a borderline disease needs.

Her family history is a mess. His discipline as a child was a joke. He was never taugth about responsabilities.

A pill would have just made him be calm. But he will be a cartoon of a person taking a drug that only induces lethargy. Escaping of reality in another way. Ending on a suicide or in othet kind of criminal behavior.

The mental problem was an asset but he was abandoned by his family. Who actually had the economical media to found appropiate integrative treatment and to rise him properly.

In your professional opinion doctor, how many medical procedures would it take to remove the chip from firefly's shoulder and to remove the stick that's up her butt?

...just so you're fully disclosed, that stick is WAY up there. And it's covered in cobwebs.

Dear Lord Child! Sorry FF that made me laugh.. Not at your expense.

Let's try this.

Affluenza



Off course had Elliot lived, he could have attempted this and more than likely won as his Parents could have afforded the best Lawyer who would have found this case. Only, he didn't want to live.

You've given us your prognosis but not delved into examples in my opinion to back those thoughts.

Welcome by the way.



So I see that Affluenza is very much a part of his trait. It's stated that, that is a mental illness, presumably because it's not something that you can exactly control. It's out of control. And, so was Elliot. So in my opinion it puts him "out of reality" if he suffered from this.

You don't mention the many Forums towards the last year + of his life, the hate women Forums, they are all wanting to be raped, they deserve it, the fact he thought of actually acting on this at first before deciding to go the way he did. Nor that more than likely as a result, his little mind, smart mind, little mind hung on to every word and it became a part of his "delusional mind" of women.. Nor that it wasn't just women, he hated full stop. Discipline, getting something wrong, "things" not just people and men, for what they could get that he couldn't.

Rejected? Not poorly treated perhaps in his eyes by his Step-Mother. Some of the things she decided to "laugh at him" over were not the way to go, telling him that her son would get laid and get a good job was wrong. Absolutely disgustingly wrong in my opinion. That in itself develops not just low self esteem but hatred and revenge to someone who does not have a sound mind. His teachers were there for him. If the kids weren't he cried like a child and therefore, was allowed to swap schools over and over. He had 2 friends over life, guys and he was going to kill them too. He had a great friend, first friend, in a female but she ended up being better friends at that time in the end (as she grew ) with his Sister. Not his plan. Jealousy arose with this guy over and over and over. His Mother gave him everything! I am not sure where you are making such a decision so quickly to be honest.

He had that. Maybe not as "high" level as he needed but as you point out he was smart, so smart he defused the Cops just prior to all of this, 7 of them, not 1. He was so smart they thought he was " a good kid" and that, the report given to them was wrong, there was no need to even look at his Videos, they didn't even trust a "Mother's Instinct" and that has a huge weight. Let's face facts.



I gotta be honnnest this seplling reminds me of somenone.

Anyway, who's family history, the Mother? The Step Mother did it and the Father stayed out of it. His Mother tried very hard, very hard to get him to mingle so did the Step Mother, there I will give her credit. They, I don't believe knew what was wrong with him and who ever they sent him to was either stupid for not seeing "something" and recommending a different method or money hungry and saw but wanted to be paid on-going. He was taught what we all were. Treat people with respect. What he didn't have was what he did have as a kid. Dad flying the kite with him, walking the hills with him, talking about life, sex. When they did broach the subject, Elliot was so smart he told them he had no sexual appetite. They didn't even question him or decide to discuss things further. He didn't have a Father figure who guided him, instead he thought his Father was awesome at finding a girlfriend so quick after Divorce. More than likely he found her before hand. He looked up to his Father. Sex education is very different than discussion girls. But, even then. Elliot did not want any girl, he saw one girl, she was beautiful in his eyes, blonde, white. I believe he wanted to be "white" but was never looked upon as such. This girl became a Model.. She was his "model" of what he wanted, that is what he "would have targeted and possibly tried to target" and they all rejected him "or would have" . So again it's no t about sex, or a woman. If he was after any woman to go out with from get go he would have found a vulnerable young girl that would have thought he wanted her. Tricksters can trick.

He was smart.

I go with Affluenza. It had to be what he wanted.

I see; thank u.

Dr. Luis, based upon his autobiography can u tell us, with a reasonable degree of medical certainty
whether if Elliot had met a female version of his personality disorder, i.e., a blonde who craved him
with equal intensity, that Elliot wud then have lived in a state of good health ?





David

Africans who landed on the shores of West Virginia were aunctioned off! Like Ebay! Humans aunctioned off other humans and their children! Show me where in the history of this country women had it that bad?

EDIT: I'm curious of the concotion of a reason to give how women in this country have had it worse than the first Africans who arrived in Jamestown in 1619. You're fighting an uphill battle here. Since white women were treated like property here you would have explain how they in turn, treated others like property.

Because the earlier waves of feminism didn't address racism that is why the ideology splintered. Ms. Davis would agree that although she is a feminist, she is black first. She experienced the same racism I have with the exception of she, being a woman, facing issues on a gender level.

The day N.O.W comes to the inner city to empower these young ladies is the day I'll jump on board.

Ugh talk about disgusting. I'm agreeing with the ideals with feminism however I think how its presented is different. SO PHILOSOPHICALLY I HAVE AN ISSUE WITH FEMINISM. Try to keep up teacher.

I will stick to my opinion about borderline petsonality disorder. First of all because is a recognized psychiatry entity listed on the dsm iv and dsm 5 which are the uppermost diagnosis reference for mental diseases.

Affluenza, although it sounds plausible, its not a current approved disease. And even tough, i would not consider it likely since affluenza patients suffer from the stress and struggled caused by the need to possess spend and became in debt to create what they belive is an acceptable wealth appearance.

Elliot by the other hand never shows a single sign of preoccupation about acquiring wealth or having more money. He centers his obsession on having sex.

What I listed as symptoms of borderline personality disorder are actually the dsm criteria for its diagnosis. The patient must have at least five to be considered for diagnosis. I suggest you re read them and apply them to the way he behaves and how he thinks according to the manifesto.

He had a few friends, I agree, but what i tried to say was that during part of his childhood he was partially successful making other boys to acknowledge him.

Part of the symptoms of borderline petsonality disorder establish that the patient trends to have extreme moods ranging from passionate love to something to complete loath. His hatred for women is an example he is obsessed with sex desires a woman who actually wants to have sec with him. But at the sametime hates the entire gender. His mysoginia is a symptom not a different problem.

The actual problem with mental illness is the low compliance to treatment. High level functioning patients have the intellect and capacity to partially function on our society. Borderline petsonality patients in particular
Seem in general like normal people. They behavior during stress is what makes the trait notorious.

His family seemed to have the wealth to give him an appropriate treatment. They have the economical means to do so. What they lack was the capacity to detect since his teens that something wrong was going on with their sons capability of managing stress and failure.

Reminds me partly of pearl jam's song jeremy.

Affluenza is a fancy new term that needs more study before be considered a real disease. Unfortunately it has recived the legal antecedent so any spoiled brat can used on his defense in the future if the father can afford hiring the correct lawyer and the correct psychologist to do his defense.

Affluenza blaming wealth seems similar to blaming guns for killing people.

But if a poor man steals food for his starving family he goes to jail. But can't we blame poverty as well for his behavior.

And what I said about the pill I was implying what might had happened if he did took always hos medication.

Would a blond sick girl with his disease could had prevented this situation.?

It may have delayed it. The moment he had a problem with her could have triggered another killing rampage. Or on another scenario could have ended in severe physical abuse of the woman.

Borderline personality disorder patients rarely tend to get well along. Both have this crave for attention. Usually they end hanging a person with dependent personality disorder since they happen to idolize other people and are easy to manipulate.

An integrative treatment was needed. Trying to cover all aspects of his behavior. Cognitive conductual therapy, family therapy, a drug, constant psychiatrist supervision, spiritual guidance, social support. His family had the money to do so.

Luismtzzz

The Malllory Millet link (the wikipedia link was provided in case someone didn't know who Kate Millett is) is relevant if only because Ms Millet comments on both the Elliott Rogers case and a particular Feminist (in this case one that I think we can agree can be considered "hard-line"). In this sense it is no less relevant than anything you have posted.

You may take issue with what she has written, but that in no way diminishes relevance. Her comments about Elliot Rogers are similar to what have been expressed by some here and many elsewhere: the primary cause of his rampage was mental illness, and blaming guns or misogyny, or white privilege is merely an attempt to advance political causes on the back of a tragic nut-case.

It doesn't have relevance to feminism per se, but it is relevant to the discussion of Feminists that has been taking place in this thread.

It is relevant to what I have previously posted as it offers testimonial support (whether it sits well with you or not) that anyone who allows feminism (or any other ism for that matter) to totally define themselves is warped and possibly dangerous.

You may not find it illuminating (but then I didn't hope or expect that you would; nor did I provide it for your reading alone), but it is relevant.

Force marriages, no right to control their properties after married, with husbands allow to beat them and on the frontier having native Americans raiding and kidnapping women along with horses!

Women & children needed to be skilled
in the use of defensive firearms against the Indians.





David

Do u believe that women shud be defensively trained
in the martial arts before marriage ?





David