nononono
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 09:24 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
However, if you are going to be facetious with your examples (or even just have the appearance of being facetious) on such a serious matter...people are doing to give a facetious, or even serious response - which won't be positive.


Well that sucks because I make stupid jokes all the time. I guess I feel like life is better when you can laugh even during things that suck. I'm actually trying to work up the nerve to start trying some stand up at the clubs here (just for fun.) The writing part comes easy and people have been telling me to get on stage for a long time, but trying to perform in front of a crowd kind of scares me.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 09:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
These aren't tenets of feminism, hawk. It just sounds like you hung around with some militant bitches.

I can't think of any basic foundational goals of feminism that any man should consider man-hating.

The cock-tease thing just sounds like sour grapes.

vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 09:43 pm
@nononono,
You can try several techniques

- the old 'imagine them all naked' (I don't know if this really works)

- train your routine (and comebacks) over & over & over until it becomes 2nd nature...unconscious skills usually inspire a great deal of confidence in ourselves

- work your way up...from small groups of friends...to while you are out at dinner with groups...to at BBQ's

- make toasts...with a quip

- pee your pants before you go out on stage
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 09:44 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

These aren't tenets of feminism, hawk. It just sounds like you hung around with some militant bitches.

I can't think of any basic foundational goals of feminism that any man should consider man-hating.

The cock-tease thing just sounds like sour grapes.


did you miss the part where I said it is what they do, not what they say, that tells the truth?

Bet so.....
0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 10:45 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
- pee your pants before you go out on stage


Haha, yes! Peeing your pants; it's not just for during PTA meetings anymore Very Happy (expect nobody's gonna understand why that's funny here except me.)

Yeah, I've been working on it for quite awhile now. People I know are very encouraging and enthusiastic about me doing it. I'm good with groups of people. I'm more worried about my body language and mannerisms. And just kind of my physicality on stage because you can write great material, but your body speaks for you too. And I have like angry rant stuff that people seem to laugh at, but also silly, like "jokey" jokes too. I'm trying to find the right way to blend the two into a cohesive stage presence.

But it's just for fun anyway. I mean I'm taking it very seriously but it's just for fun.
nononono
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 10:50 pm
@nononono,
...anyway A2K is prob not the place for me to work on material, but don't be surprised if I throw some dumb joke in once in awhile.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 29 May, 2014 11:17 pm
@vikorr,
The major erroneous assumption in your thinking about the sexual assault/rape laws, when the people involved have been drinking, is that the female was "willing" during the act, but afterward, due to "regret", uses her intoxicated state to claim she couldn't consent because she was drunk.

You are so biased in your view of such situations, it doesn't seem to dawn on you that it is possible she never, in fact, consented to what was done to her, she was simply too intoxicated to resist, and that the response of the accused, "She was willing" is a misleading lie.

Let's consider a case...a case that reflects the reality of a sexual assault of a female who was intoxicated.

A rape complaint is filed by a high school girl, claiming sexual assault during a night of parties. The people accused of the crime, high school football players, respond by saying, "It was consensual. She was willing". One of them even further believes he did nothing wrong because "there was no force."

The girl involved in the complaint was so drunk she has no clear recollection of the events of that night. And yet the males involved insist she was willing, that she consented.

She is immediately viewed, in the community, as having "regrets" about behavior she willingly engaged in, and making up a story to appease her parents when she came home drunk. One of the football teams coaches said
Quote:
“What else are you going to tell your parents when you come home drunk like that and after a night like that?” said Hubbard, who is one of the team’s 19 coaches. “She had to make up something. Now people are trying to blow up our football program because of it.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/high-school-football-rape-case-unfolds-online-and-divides-steubenville-ohio.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

From everything you've said, in your remarks about "drunken sex" you'd obviously be in favor of dismissing her claim--because this is obviously just another "regret" case, or a female ashamed of her sexual behavior, who is now trying to perpetrate an injustice on innocent males by denying responsibility for her own drunken behavior.

Well, as it turns out, there were witnesses who saw this girl while she was intoxicated, photos and videos of her were taken, and some were even posted online, and there were also lots of Tweets and messages about what transpired.
Quote:
Twitter posts, videos and photographs circulated by some who attended the nightlong set of parties suggested that an unconscious girl had been sexually assaulted over several hours while others watched. She may have even been urinated on.

In one photograph posted on Instagram by a Steubenville High football player, the girl, who was from across the Ohio River in Weirton, W.Va., is shown looking unresponsive as two boys carry her by her wrists and ankles. Twitter users wrote the words “rape” and “drunk girl” in their posts....

The city’s police chief begged for witnesses to come forward, but received little response...“The thing I found most disturbing about this is that there were other people around when this was going on,” William McCafferty, the Steubenville police chief, said of the events that unfolded. “Nobody had the morals to say, ‘Hey, stop it, that isn’t right.’
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/high-school-football-rape-case-unfolds-online-and-divides-steubenville-ohio.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Those who saw the girl described her severely intoxicated state--which raised doubts about her alleged "willingness" to participate in sexual contact.
Quote:
At the parties, the girl had so much to drink that she was unable to recall much from that night, and nothing past midnight, the police said. The girl began drinking early on, according to an account that the police pieced together from witnesses, including two of the three Steubenville High athletes who testified in court in October. By 10 or 10:30 that night, it was clear that the dark-haired teenager was drunk because she was stumbling and slurring her words, witnesses testified.

Some people at the party taunted her, chanted and cheered as a Steubenville High baseball player dared bystanders to urinate on her, one witness testified.

About two hours later, the girl left the party with several Big Red football players, including Mays and Richmond, witnesses said. They stayed only briefly at a second party before leaving for their third party of the night. Two witnesses testified that the girl needed help walking. One testified that she was carried out of the house by Mays and Richmond while she was “sleeping.”

She woke up long enough to vomit in the street, a witness said, and she remained there alone for several minutes with her top off. Another witness said Mays and Richmond were holding her hair back.

Afterward, they headed to the home of one football player who has now become a witness for the prosecution. That player told the police that he was in the back seat of his Volkswagen Jetta with Mays and the girl when Mays proceeded to flash the girl’s breasts and penetrate her with his fingers, while the player videotaped it on his phone. The player, who shared the video with at least one person, testified that he videotaped Mays and the girl “because he was being stupid, not making the right choices.” He said he later deleted the recording.

The girl “was just sitting there, not really doing anything,” the player testified. “She was kind of talking, but I couldn’t make out the words that she was saying.”

At that third party, the girl could not walk on her own and vomited several times before toppling onto her side, several witnesses testified. Mays then tried to coerce the girl into giving him oral sex, but the girl was unresponsive, according to the player who videotaped Mays and the girl.

The player said he did not try to stop it because “at the time, no one really saw it as being forceful.”

At one point, the girl was on the ground, naked, unmoving and silent, according to two witnesses who testified. Mays, they said, had exposed himself while he was right next to her.

Richmond was behind her, with his hands between her legs, penetrating her with his fingers, a witness said.

“I tried to tell Trent to stop it,” another athlete, who was Mays’s best friend, testified. “You know, I told him, ‘Just wait — wait till she wakes up if you’re going to do any of this stuff. Don’t do anything you’re going to regret.’ ”

He said Mays answered: “It’s all right. Don’t worry.”

That boy took a photograph of what Mays and Richmond were doing to the girl. He explained in court how he wanted her to know what had happened to her, but he deleted it from his phone, he testified, after showing it to several people.

The girl slept on a couch in the basement of that home that night, with Mays alongside her before he took a spot on the floor.

When she awoke, she was unaware of what had happened to her, she has told her parents and the police. But by then, the story of her night was already unfolding on the Internet, on Twitter and via text messages. Compromising and explicit photographs of her were posted and shared.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/high-school-football-rape-case-unfolds-online-and-divides-steubenville-ohio.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


The girl learned what happened to her afterward--by reading about it in the newspaper
Quote:
Within a day, a family member in town shared with the girl’s parents more disturbing visuals: a photograph posted on Instagram of their daughter who looked passed out at a party and a YouTube video of a former Steubenville baseball player talking about a rape. That former player, who graduated earlier this year, also posted on Twitter, “Song of the night is definitely Rape Me by Nirvana,” and “Some people deserve to be peed on,” which was reshared on Twitter by several people, including Mays.

The parents then notified the police and took their daughter to a hospital. At 1:38 a.m. on Aug. 14, the girl’s parents walked into the Steubenville police station with a flash drive with photographs from online, Twitter posts and the video on it. It was all the evidence the girl’s parents had, leaving the police with the task of filling in the details of what had happened that night. The police said the case was challenging partly because too much time had passed since the suspected rape. By then, the girl had taken at least one shower and might have washed away evidence, said McCafferty, the police chief. He added that it also was too late for toxicology tests to determine if she had been drugged.

“My daughter learned about what had happened to her that night by reading the story about it in the local newspaper,” the girl’s mother said.

“How would you like to go through that as a mother, seeing your daughter, who is your entire world, treated like that?” the mother said. “It was devastating for all of us.”

Mays and Richmond were arrested Aug. 22, about a week after the girl’s parents reported the suspected rape
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/high-school-football-rape-case-unfolds-online-and-divides-steubenville-ohio.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Even though what went on with this girl was photographed and witnessed, the police still had difficulty gathering evidence and building their case. Rape cases are difficult to establish and prosecute
Quote:
Despite the seeming abundance of material online regarding the night of the suspected rape and the number of teenagers who were at the parties that night, the police still have had trouble establishing what anyone might regard as an airtight case.

A medical examination at a hospital more than one day after the parties did not reveal any evidence, like semen, that might have supported an accusation of rape, the police said. The Steubenville police knocked on doors of the people thought to be at the parties, but not many people were forthcoming with information. In several instances, the police seized cellphones so they could look for photographs or videos related to the case.

Eventually, 15 phones and 2 iPads were confiscated and analyzed by a cybercrime expert at the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. That expert could not retrieve deleted photographs and videos on most of the phones.

In the end, the expert recovered two naked photographs of the girl. One photograph showed the girl face down on the floor at one party, naked with her arms tucked beneath her, according to testimony given at a hearing in October. The other photograph was not described. Both photographs were found on Mays’s iPhone. No photograph or video showed anyone involved in a sexual act with the girl.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/high-school-football-rape-case-unfolds-online-and-divides-steubenville-ohio.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


As I keep telling you, the issue is consent. That she was drunk was not the main issue--the issue was was she too impaired to give consent. One of the defendant's lawyers insisted the girl had consented, and was in physical condition to consent..
Quote:
Adam Nemann, Mays’s lawyer, said the case was unusual because the police collected no physical evidence or testimony from the girl who asserts she was raped.

“The whole question is consent,” he said. “Was she conscious enough to give consent or not? We think she was. She gave out the pass code to her phone after the sexual assault was said to have occurred.”

And, of course, the defendant's lawyer tried to slut-slam the girl, by pointing to her past sexual behaviors. If she was a tramp, it meant she was consenting.
Quote:
He said that online photographs and posts could ultimately be “a gift” for his client’s case because the girl, before that night in August, had posted provocative comments and photographs on her Twitter page over time. He added that those online posts demonstrated that she was sexually active and showed that she was “clearly engaged in at-risk behavior.”

The special prosecutors in the case rejected the defense claims that the girl was consenting--and said the defendants were aware of her condition at the time..
Quote:
But in court, they have rejected the defense’s claims. The girl, they have said, was in no condition to give consent to sexual advances that night — and the teenagers there knew it, the prosecutors said.

At a hearing in early October, prosecutors told the judge in the case that the defendants treated the girl “like a toy” and, “The bottom line is we don’t have to prove that she said no, we just have to prove that when they’re doing things to her, she’s not moving. She’s not responsive, and the evidence is consistent and clear.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/sports/high-school-football-rape-case-unfolds-online-and-divides-steubenville-ohio.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


The prosecutors did prove that that the girl was too incapacitated to have been able to give legal consent. The two defendants in this case were both convicted of rape of a minor.

Was it an "injustice" that only the males, and not the female, were held responsible for the rape? That question, which you seem so fond of, is simply absurd.

Quote:
The Steubenville High School rape occurred in Steubenville, Ohio, on the night of August 11, 2012, when a high school girl, incapacitated by alcohol, was publicly and repeatedly sexually assaulted by her peers, several of whom documented the acts in social media. The victim was transported, undressed, photographed, and sexually assaulted. She was also penetrated vaginally by other students' fingers (digital penetration), an act defined as rape under Ohio law.

The jocular attitude of the assailants was documented on Facebook, Twitter, text messages, and cell phone recordings of the acts. The crime and ensuing legal proceedings generated considerable controversy and galvanized a national conversation about rape and rape culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case


This girl was not "willing" she had not "consented". But she was drunk. But suppose those photos had never surfaced? Suppose there had been no witnesses? She had been raped, but how could it have been proved? How could she have been believed? And that's the problem most of the time in cases like this. The intoxicated female is not consenting, she's simply too incapacitated to resist--often too incapacitated to say, "No". And too often her report of rape is dismissed as being "regret" or a false accusation, or an attempt to salvage her reputation, and she's further taunted for trying to tarnish the reputation of "an innocent guy". She's the one least likely to see justice, and most likely to experience injustice, after she's been raped.

That's the reality of rape--and misogyny--in our culture.







vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 02:37 am
@firefly,
Quote:
You are so biased in your view of such situations, it doesn't seem to dawn on you that it is possible she never, in fact, consented to what was done to her, she was simply too intoxicated to resist, and that the response of the accused, "She was willing" is a misleading lie.


Firefly…you are eitherwise not reading, or flat out lying now…

Ossobuco wrote:
I can concur that if a guy is a bit drunk himself and the woman is blotto to the point of near black out and he proceeds to go ahead, then she has cause to complain.

vikorr wrote:
I agree...it's an incredibly difficult thing to prove in court (states of intoxication, after the fact), but as a principle, I too concur.

As the rest of your post rests on your misrepresentation of my position…I won’t be buying into it…for we are actually in agreement on that particular case.

The problem is, in law, a woman doesn't have to be 'almost comatose' to 'not be able to give consent' (any man taking advantage of such a situation should face criminal courts)- just heavily intoxicated. Every post of mine has been aimed at that state of intoxication - because it is where the double standards exist.

I will note that 'willingness' can't exist in the example you gave...and so it should be blatantly obvious that I have not, at any stage, been talking about that sort of situation. For you to keep sidetracking like you do...shows how far you are willing to go to avoid answering a question that would bring up contradictions that would make your support of an unjust law...uncomfortable for you.

And you still can’t answer a simple question withour referring to specific law:

This question doesn't need a specific law to answer, because it is about the principle of justice that is - fairness.
Quote:
Please explain how there is justice in a law where...two equally drunk people do exactly the same thing together, and they willingly do it together, and:
A. is not capable of making a decision, is not responsible for decisions & actions, and doesn't commit a crime; while
B. is capable of making a decision, is responsible for their decisions & actions, and does commit a crime.

If you can do that (rationally) without raising gender issues...then I will be very impressed.

------------------------------
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 03:01 am
@firefly,
You did read the below post, right? It is incredibly obvious that I am not talking about a woman who is semi comatose:

Quote:
So, if a guy and girl meet in a bar, end up in the same state of intoxication, and she:

A - chases him around the nightclub
B - takes him home to her place
C - lays him flat on his back, jumps on top of him and has intercourse with him

(or keeping A & B the same)

D - gives him oral sex (which will still trigger most rape laws, as it involves penetration)

According to this law you support...if the next day she has regrets, she can make a rape complaint, and he is a rapist.

----------------------------------
There is no logic, or fairness in that - it would be a travesty of justice.

----------------------------------
This conundrum couldn't exist if the law held both genders to the same standard


There are others along similar lines. So as I think about this, and my point re willingness (a person is unable to be willing when semi comatose) - given the incredibly obvious state of intoxication I am talking about (not semi-comatose, not coerced, not by force or any of the other diversions you ahve brought up)...I can only conclude that you are purposely misrepresenting my position.

You can't bring yourself to directly answer a simple question...so you keep diverting...is that it?
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 03:04 am
@FOUND SOUL,
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/elliot-rodgers-former-roommate-tells-what-it-was-like-to-live-with-the-mass-murderer/story-fnh81jut-1226936822171

Quote:
A FORMER roommate of mass murderer Elliot Rodger says he moved out of the apartment he shared with the disturbed youth because he had a “bad feeling”.

In a courageous interview with ABC News Chris Rugg, a film major at the University of California in Santa Barbara, also reveals he has regrets not acting on signs Rodger needed help.

Rudd said he and another male student left the apartment they shared with Rodger last June because they were “getting really uncomfortable living there.”

Rugg said his roommate told him that he believed Rodger had a firearm because he could hear a gun “clicking.”

I didn’t hear the clicks, but he said that he would click the gun over and over and the way the room is set up you could see the silhouette of everything that’s going on there,”

“I guess we were the quiet apartment,” he said.

Rodger took them up on social invites for meals or gym time but after the fourth or fifth time, he stopped, Rugg said.

He avoided conversation and was overheard having what Rugg presumed to be telephone conversations from his bedroom that got “angrier and louder”.

“There was a lot of just frustration for how he was not having a good time at school and how no one seemed to want to hang out with him, and it just got more and more serious,” Rugg said.

Looking back at the deadly rampage, Rugg said there were warning signs that something wasn’t right. He regrets not acting to prevent the tragedy that unfolded.

“I realised that if I am not surprised that this is something he would have done then why did I not say anything?”




This kid is going to run this past his mind every night whilst he sleeps for a long time and it's not his fault or his call. 12 months almost is a long time to sweat at what you feel you want to do, work yourself up to do it and execute it.

panzade
 
  3  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 10:00 am
@nononono,
Quote:
...anyway A2K is prob not the place for me to work on material, but don't be surprised if I throw some dumb joke in once in awhile.

Throw it down here http://able2know.org/topic/84440-1 We love dumb jokes.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 02:00 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr, your problem is you are ignorant of the actual laws that exist. And you are attacking laws that don't exist.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion of this issue, you have to be considerably better informed about actual laws, and their application, before you start labeling them "unjust". You appear to be quite ignorant of actual state sexual assault laws, and how they define consent, and when they deem consent not legally present. So you are making erroneous assumptions about these laws, and how they are being applied.
Quote:

The problem is, in law, a woman doesn't have to be 'almost comatose' to 'not be able to give consent' (any man taking advantage of such a situation should face criminal courts)- just heavily intoxicated. Every post of mine has been aimed at that state of intoxication - because it is where the double standards exist....

And you still can’t answer a simple question withour referring to specific law

First you make an assumption that something is the case "in law". Then you don't want to refer to "specific law". Well, if you don't want to refer to "specific law", how can you back up your assumption that something even exists "in law"? I don't think your assumptions exist in actual law.

You're making assumptions about the degree of intoxication/impairment/incapacitation that state law requires to consider consent not legally present. It's not just what the individual says, or claims, in terms of their state of impairment, it's what state law defines as a condition in which consent is not legally present--and there has to be evidence that the incapacitating condition was actually present at the time of the sexual assault. And the evidence can be either direct or circumstantial, but there has to be evidence to back up a claim of incapacitation that would meet the state standard for when consent is not legally present.

That's why I posted an actual case--the Steubenville rape case--because that case involved determining the girl's state of impairment regarding whether consent was legally present. A defense attorney claimed she was cognitively able to give consent because she was able to give someone the password to her cell phone. The prosecutor used other measures--photos, witness statements, etc. --to prove the girl was in a state where consent was not legally present--so there was evidence to back up a rape charge, based on that lack of consent, due to incapacitation by alcohol.

What you fail to realize is that, in all cases, where a sexual assault charge is based solely on the victim's incapacitation, and legal inability to consent, due to drugs or alcohol, there also has to be evidence of such incapacitation of the victim, otherwise the sexual assault charge cannot be lodged by the state. They don't just take the complainant's word for it.

So your basic assumption is false, regarding a claimant's easy ability to avoid responsibility, for willing acts, by simply saying, "I was drunk" and then having that blithely accepted as sufficient to establish that consent was not legally present. The laws don't work the way you think they work. They are considerably more just and fair to those accused than you think they are. If anything, the revelation that, "I was drunk," usually results in the claimant's report not being regarded seriously, and not investigated sufficiently.
Quote:
So, if a guy and girl meet in a bar, end up in the same state of intoxication, and she:

A - chases him around the nightclub
B - takes him home to her place
C - lays him flat on his back, jumps on top of him and has intercourse with him

(or keeping A & B the same)

D - gives him oral sex (which will still trigger most rape laws, as it involves penetration)

According to this law you support...if the next day she has regrets, she can make a rape complaint, and he is a rapist.

I'm coming to the conclusion you don't understand sexual assault laws at all.
In the situations you just described, she hasn't been sexually assaulted at all--she's the active initiator--she's the one doing something to his body--there is nothing in any state law which would support her bringing an assault charge against him. However, if he was non-consenting, and she ignored that, or if he was so incapacitated that legal consent was not present, he would have the legal basis to bring a sexual assault complaint against her.
Quote:
gives him oral sex (which will still trigger most rape laws, as it involves penetration)

Your ignorance is stunning--if she gives him oral sex, she's not penetrating his body. Laughing That doesn't " trigger most rape laws" . Laughing In fact, if he forces oral sex on her, that doesn't " trigger most rape laws"Laughing In either of those instances, if the act is done without the consent of the other, it would be a sexual assault, but not "rape". There are many sexual assault laws, and those called "rape" have quite specific definitions that refer to quite specific acts and body parts. Other sexual assault laws refer to other acts and other body parts.
Quote:
According to this law you support...if the next day she has regrets, she can make a rape complaint, and he is a rapist


You are clearly confusing the law itself, which simply defines types of sexual assaults, with the reasons for which people chose to report violations of the law, and those are two very separate things--two very separate things that should not be confused. The law can be quite just, as I believe it is, but people can report violations of the law, and bring complaints, for reasons both valid and invalid. And that's the case with all laws, not just sexual assault laws. And investigations are done to try to weed out clearly invalid complaints before the matter goes any further legally.

I support the sexual assault laws of my state, and the crimes of sexual assault they describe, and I want to see those laws enforced. I believe these laws are just.

I do not support anyone making a complaint based on "regret". Nor does any law support making a complaint based on "regret". I firmly believe that only those who have legitimate reason to believe they have been the victim of a crime of sexual assault should bring a complaint.

And a rape complaint does not make the person named in the complaint "a rapist"--that's absurd. We have a legal process and system to determine whether people are guilty of crimes. And that same basic process operates in the case of all crimes, sexual assault crimes are no different. And rape, particularly acquaintance rape, is a crime that is notoriously difficult to prosecute, let alone prosecute successfully.

In all of your posts on this issue, you have been doing nothing but proving you are ignorant of actual sexual assault laws, and how they are actually applied. If you can't understand all of the inaccuracies and flaws in your thinking by now, after all of my efforts to point them out to you, I give up. I'm not interested in your fantasies about these matters, I prefer to stick to reality, and I know what those laws actually say, and what they don't say. You should try dealing with reality.



firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 02:59 pm
Quote:
“If I Can’t Have Them, No One Will”: How Misogyny Kills Men
By Amanda Hess

Shortly before Elliot Rodger set out into the streets of Isla Vista, California, on Friday night, he released an 138-page manifesto outlining his intentions to wage a “war on women” where he would “punish all females for the crime of depriving me of sex.” By the end of the evening, he had murdered two women and four men, wounded 13 others, and killed himself. In the wake of the murders, some leveraged Rodger’s death count to argue that, if anything, Rodger’s crimes were an expression of his hatred of men, not women. If he was such a misogynist, why were his victims mostly male? “He killed twice as many men as women you fool,” one man wrote to me in an email, echoing a sentiment I’ve heard in many forms over the past few days. “That sound like misogyny to you?”

It does. Women’s issues are often dismissed as a niche concern, but we constitute half of the human population. Once that’s recognized, it’s not hard to see how hating us can inflict significant collateral damage among all people—including the men who are our partners, our relatives, and our colleagues. Misogyny kills men, too.

Rodger hated women, that much was clear. He told us again and again in the manifesto he circulated in advance of the attack, in videos he posted weeks beforehand, and on misogynistic message boards he populated for years. Women are “vicious, stupid, cruel animals,” he wrote. They are “spoiled, heartless, wicked bitches”; they are “a plague that must be quarantined”; they are “evil and depraved”; they should not “have any rights in a civilized society.” Rodger fantasized about herding all women into concentration camps, starving most of them to death, then farming out the rest of them for reproductive purposes in order to ensure the dominance of men. But men who loved women also incurred Rodger’s wrath. “I will destroy all women,” Rodger wrote. “I will make them all suffer for rejecting me. I will arm myself with deadly weapons and wage a war against all women and the men they are attracted to.” Rodger viewed women as objects, and he resented other men for hoarding what he viewed as his property. “If I can’t have them,” he wrote, “no one will.”

In her 2007 book Whipping Girl, Julia Serano noted that misogyny is the belief that “femaleness and femininity are inferior to, and exist primarily for the benefit of, maleness and masculinity,” and that’s an attitude that works to police both men and women.* It expresses itself in the bullying of insufficiently masculine boys, in the pervasiveness of homophobic slurs, in the suppression of open emotional expression among men, and in overwhelming violence against trans women, who are especially stigmatized for appearing to reject what some consider as their God-given male bodies.

Then there is the male toll from domestic violence against women. Over the past decade, organizations that fight domestic violence have begun to take a closer look at all of the deaths that result from dating and spousal relationships, beyond the victims who are killed by their intimate partners. Women are overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence murders. But men die, too. Some are killed by their partners, male or female. Others are killed by police after killing their partners, or attempting to. Many kill themselves. And every year, a number of men die at the hands of other men who murder the current partners of their ex-girlfriends or ex-wives. Still—perhaps because these murders constitute a minority of cases, and because domestic violence organizations are expressly devoted to aiding the immediate victims of intimate partner violence—the phenomenon hasn’t been seriously investigated. Jane Doe Inc., an advocacy organization against domestic violence in Massachusetts, expanded the bounds of its own annual death count in 2005 to include homicides where “the homicide victim was a bystander or intervened in an attempted domestic violence homicide and was killed” and ones where “the motive for the murder was reported to have included jealousy” in the context of an intimate relationship. "The human toll from domestic violence is grossly underestimated,” Jane Doe reported in 2006. “Domestic violence homicides represent just the tip of the iceberg regarding mortality and morbidity resulting from domestic violence.”

Rodger was not a domestic abuser. He was a mentally ill young man who had better access to firearms than he did sufficient mental health care. But his stated motivation behind targeting both male and female victims—“If I can’t have them, no one will”—echoes the attitudes of the perpetrators of domestic violence. Conforming to Jane Doe’s framework, Rodger’s male victims included men he envied as well as roommates he perceived as getting in his way.

It is not uncommon for men who resent women to take out their aggressions on other men, but unlike public violence against women, male-on-male attacks slip more easily underneath our cultural radar. When Jersey Shore reality star Snooki was punched by a man at a bar while cameras rolled, the guy was instantly mobbed by her protective male friends and, later, widely condemned by television viewers. But as Cord Jefferson detailed in Jezebel at the time, violence between men on the show—often enacted in fights over the show’s female characters—was completely normalized. Both scenarios are evidence of misogyny’s societal impact; only one is accepted as such.

A year before the murders, Elliot Rodger used this dynamic to his advantage when he attended a college house party that he later wrote in his manifesto was an attempt to give the “female gender one last chance to provide me with the pleasures I deserved from them.” But the female partygoers failed to satisfy, and, drunk and dejected, Rodger hopped onto a 10-foot ledge and openly attempted to shove off the women he disdained, and the men who had occupied their attentions. When police confronted him about the incident, Rodger claimed that it had simply been a boyish fight between men, who Rodger said had attacked him for acting too “cocky.” This excuse helped Rodger evade immediate punishment and allowed the misogynistic roots of his anger to go undetected.

Elliot Rodger targeted women out of entitlement, their male partners out of jealousy, and unrelated male bystanders out of expedience. This is not ammunition for an argument that he was a misandrist at heart—it’s evidence of the horrific extent of misogyny’s cultural reach.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/05/29/elliot_rodger_hated_men_because_he_hated_women.html?wpisrc=burger_bar
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 03:12 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Have you seen this, Foundy?
Quote:
Actually, No, Elliot Rodger Was Never Diagnosed With Autism
Tommy Christopher
May 29, 2014

Since last Friday’s murderous rampage at UCSB, it has been widely reported that mass murderer Elliot Rodger had an Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) formerly known as Asperger’s Syndrome*, and some of that reporting has falsely suggested a link between autism and criminal violence. A closer look at that reporting, however, reveals that according to a spokesman for the Rodger family, Elliot Rodger was never even diagnosed with an ASD.

For several days now, I’ve been highlighting the false and irresponsible reporting on autism in the wake of last Friday’s massacre, but there have also been examples of responsible reporting on Elliot Rodger’s alleged autism, even on MSNBC. The most important thing to remember is that, whether or not Rodger was autistic, that fact has no relevance to the horrific acts he committed.

Having said that, though, it also matters whether the fact of his autism was even true. A friend asked me, yesterday, how much confidence I had in the reported autism diagnosis, but as I’ve said before, being an autism parent doesn’t automatically make me an expert. There were things about Rodger’s manifesto that made me skeptical. Aside from some very superficially recognizable characteristics, Rodger didn’t describe any of the experiences that would go along with an ASD, nothing about communication difficulties, nothing about sensory issues, nothing about receiving any educational services.

That manifesto was, among other things, excruciatingly thorough and brutally honest, and while Rodger described, in detail, all of the things he viewed as deficits that had been inflicted upon him, he never mentions anything remotely related to autism. He also recounts meetings with everyone he ever met, including a “life coach” named Tony and the psychiatrist who prescribed him an anti-psychotic medication, but never mentions a child study team, or any evaluation for autism. While I’m no more qualified to render a diagnosis than Dr. Joe Scarborough is, it made me skeptical. The reporting on that diagnosis is something that’s right in my wheelhouse, so I set about trying to find out where this all actually came from.

The source of all the reporting on Rodger’s supposed autism appears to be a statement by Rodger family attorney Alan Shifman, on Saturday, in which he told reporters that Elliot Rodger had been under the care of multiple professionals since childhood, and that he was a “highly functional Asperger’s Syndrome child,” but Shifman is never directly quoted as saying there was ever a diagnosis.

That precise verbiage is also found in some 1999 divorce papers obtained by RadarOnline, in which Li Chin Rodger, Elliot’s mother, was seeking three thousand dollars a month in child support, in part because, she claimed, “Elliot has special needs; he is a high functioning autistic child.”

In that same filing, though, Peter Rodger responds by saying he doesn’t know anything about an autism diagnosis for his son:

Though Li Chin Rodger claims in her court documents that Elliot is a high functioning autistic child, I was not involved in any prior evaluation of Elliot. Li Chin did not inform me about any evaluation of Elliot. This disturbed me greatly. I am now in the process of having Elliot evaluated by a child psychiatrist. Li Chin Rodger has agreed to be a part of the process.

Whether that evaluation ever occurred is unknown, but if it did, it did not result in an autism diagnosis, according to Simon Astaire, a family friend whom the Wall Street Journal reports was “appointed to speak for the Rodger family.” Here’s what Astaire told The Telegraph:

Simon Astaire, a family friend, said their son had been seeing therapists since the age of eight, including virtually “every day” while at high school.

He said: “What more could they have done? They are going through indescribable grief dealing with the loss of their son. His parents were conscious and concerned about their son’s health. They thought he was in good hands.”

Mr Astaire said Rodger, who was believed to have Asperger’s but had not been diagnosed, was “reserved to a daunting degree” and “fundamentally withdrawn”, but seemed to have “no affinity to guns whatsoever”.


Clearly, Rodger’s parents became convinced that he was autistic, and his psychiatrist, celebrity shrink and non-autism specialist Dr. Charles Sophy, may have seen superficial traits in Elliot that reminded him of Asperger’s/autism, but if there was no diagnosis, then there was no autism. Just because your kid is awkward and really likes video games does not make him autistic. Unlike many older adults who are diagnosed later in life because of the increased awareness, Elliot Rodger was under the care of medical and psychiatric professionals for over ten years. If he was autistic, he would have been diagnosed.

Given the nightmarish horror that some make autism out to be, it might be difficult to understand why a parent would cling to, or even hope for, such a diagnosis, but when the alternative is something like, say, paranoid schizophrenia and/or sociopathy, “high-functioning autism” might not sound so bad. Nobody’s going to stick a “Sociopath Awareness” magnet on their car.

Again, I’m not remotely qualified to diagnose anyone with anything, but I am qualified to report the fact that Elliot Rodger was prescribed a medication used to treat paranoid schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder, and that sociopathy, the symptoms of which Rodger’s own manifesto checks nearly every box, is often confused for autism by idiots and quacks. During the last round of autism propaganda, following Newtown, there were “experts” and reporters all over the TV reporting that people with ASD “lack empathy,” and even have “something missing in the brain,” which is completely untrue of autistic people, but completely true of sociopaths.

Whatever the truth turns out to be, journalists should stop reporting that Elliot Rodger was autistic, unless and until someone presents evidence that he was actually diagnosed with it.

*Author’s note: Asperger’s Syndrome was once a standalone diagnosis, but is now included in the autism spectrum.
http://thedailybanter.com/2014/05/report-mass-murderer-elliot-rodger-never-diagnosed-autism/
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 03:39 pm
@firefly,
Hey FF

Interesting read from someone who knows of Aspergers and that intuition that kicked in and made him re-read.

Somewhere amongst here I acknowledged this and highlighted it. I'd have to find it, when his Mother filed for Divorce she wrote "for the purpose of financial support" that Elliot had a high end scale of Aspergers which his Father, stated " That's the first I've heard of it". Which is what you just highlighted.

Though I believe he suffered from some of their symptoms.

Quote:
Children with Asperger’s disorder might:
initiate interactions with others but have difficulty in sustaining social interaction

interact with people if they need something or to talk about something that
interests them, but not for the sake of being social or out of genuine interest in others

interact in an awkward and stilted way – for example, they might avoid eye contact while speaking or interpret things literally

interact more easily with adults than with children

not show emotion or empathy.



Quote:
Repetitive or persistent behaviours
Children with Asperger’s disorder might:
have restricted or obsessive interests that make them seem like ‘walking encyclopaedias’ about particular topics
prefer routines and rules
not respond well to change.


Though he interacted with children and Adults he 'liked' and at the earlier times had no problems interacting with children, though once he liked them he tended to hate them at some stage as well (bored of them? no longer served his purpose?) Off course, some he hated later in life as they had sex or a girlfriend. I can't see much of any persistent behaviours that he had other than:-

Obsessive interests - he certainly had that from a certain age upwards. He hated routines and rules, he adapted to change once it happened.

And, my Cousins child is Autistic. I've watched over the years the videos, still photos she puts up not just of him but the special needs children that she volunteers to look after.. Nothing Elliot wrote about his life, looked anything like them, nothing he did either.

I'd say that Li Chin noted the non social skills and used it. I'd say that Elliot noted he was shorter, he couldn't get on the rides at Jurrasic park as he was too short. He noted in his school picture he was the shortest and didn't like it, he rebelled also refusing to cross his legs in another instance. Yet, it was important for him to not get a card from his Teachers or Principal each year, representing he did something wrong. This was highly important to him.

All she really saw was a kid that was awkward and this never changed.

In my above post I noted how his previous flat mates left, found him disturbing, a year before constantly clicking his gun in his room. But, more so, that he did socialise with them 4 or 5 times and on the last occasion ditched them.

He did the same thing with the "cool kids" .

When they were no longer useful?

Quote:
Initiate interactions with others but have difficulty in sustaining social interaction


firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 04:19 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
I'm still thinking about your theory that Rodger was sexually abused when in pre-school.

But I also think he had massive hang-ups regarding sex, and possibly about what he imagined women would want, or demand of him, in the way of sex or sexual performance, and that that absolutely panicked him. That fear also would have accounted for some of his hatred of women--he saw them as able to satisfy his sexual need, but he possibly also saw them as requiring, or even demanding, something of him sexually he didn't think he was capable of delivering. That would have accounted for the attraction/hatred conflict toward females he experienced, as well as his fantasies, in his manifesto, of wanting to abolish sex for everyone--he winds up rejecting the whole idea of sex, for everyone--he wants to see no sex for anyone. He actually, finally, abhors the very idea of sex.

This was a kid who was so anxious about learning to drive that he didn't want to get a learner's permit when he turned 16--as most kids might enthusiastically look forward to doing--he didn't think he could handle driving a car, and it was over a year later before he even tried to learn how to drive. If he was so nervous about learning to drive, and being able to handle a car, can you imagine how nervous he might have been about his ability to sexually function adequately with a woman? He didn't feel he measured up enough to even get noticed by females, can you imagine what he thought they might demand of him if he ever got in bed with one?

Do you remember his saying he saw another boy watching porn on a computer when he was 11? He got a glimpse of a couple having intercourse and he was stunned--he didn't know that was what men and women did--and he was revolted by it--he felt revulsion. He said his father never taught him how to "woo women" but I don't think his father had ever discussed the "facts of life" with him either, or talked to him about sexuality at all. At the age of 11, he certainly should have had some idea of what sexual contact was about, even if he found it "disgusting" to look at at that age.

And, while Elliot told us all about his first masturbation experiences, and his first orgasm, and his subsequent masturbation fantasy of "a beautiful blond girl", he never mentions ever watching porn as something he did for sexual pleasure. I found it somewhat unusual, for a male of his age, that he seemingly had no interest in porn, not even in college, neither out of simple curiosity, nor as an adjunct to his masturbation. With all his bemoaning about his virginity, I think he was far more terrified of actual sex than he was attracted to it. And terrified about it to such an extent, that watching porn would have been more far anxiety provoking than sexually arousing for him. That's my hunch anyway.

So I definitely think he had sexual hang-ups, that weren't just due to frustration over his inability to lose his virginity. It's possible that there was a connection to some early abuse in his life, but not necessarily.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 04:53 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
This was a kid who was so anxious about learning to drive that he didn't want to get a learner's permit when he turned 16--as most kids might enthusiastically look forward to doing--he didn't think he could handle driving a car, and it was over a year later before he even tried to learn how to drive. If he was so nervous about learning to drive, and being able to handle a car, can you imagine how nervous he might have been about his ability to sexually function adequately with a woman? He didn't feel he measured up enough to even get noticed by females, can you imagine what he thought they might demand of him if he ever got in bed with one?


Quote:
The percentage of teens with a driver's license has fallen significantly in the past few decades. Experts suspect there's no single explanation for the shift, but cite several possible factors, including prices for high gas and insurance, stricter state driving requirements and a greater willingness to let Mom and Dad do the driving.

"The numbers suggest that fewer teens are wanting to drive," said Karl Brauer, senior director of insights at Kelley Blue Book.
Only 28 percent of 16-year-olds had their driver's license in 2010, compared with about 46 percent of 16-year-olds who were licensed drivers in 1983, according to an analysis of data from the Federal Highway Administration and the Census Bureau data compiled by Michael Sivak and Brandon

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100880818

http://able2know.org/topic/65223-1

FIrefly, you should not be allowed out in public without a fact checker.

Besides, how do you think driving, which is a lot about predicting what other drivers will do, is going to go for a guy who cares a lot about knowing what girls want but who has figured out that he has been lied to about the answer consistently for years by adults that he trusted??

Not bloody well I imagine.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 04:56 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
When Elliot was growing up, his mother carefully managed and structured a social life for him. She made sure he had playdates, some friends around etc. I don't get the feeling he ever did much initiating, and his mother was trying to compensate for him, so he'd have some social life. As he got older, he was able to connect with other boys on the basis of shared interests, like video games, and internet games, but when these interests waned, so did the friendships. He doesn't seem to have connected emotionally to his friends, even those he had known for many years.
Quote:
In my above post I noted how his previous flat mates left, found him disturbing, a year before constantly clicking his gun in his room. But, more so, that he did socialise with them 4 or 5 times and on the last occasion ditched them.

Other people at college also tried to socialize with him, and to include him, and it was Elliot who ditched them, or just withdrew from them. He wasn't socially isolated because people were all ignoring him, he couldn't form relationships. And his behavior, and his incessant preoccupation with not having a girlfriend, and his anger, and finally, his increasingly aggressive fantasies, drove away even the old friends he had since childhood.

He definitely had socialization problems, and some emotional/personality problems, starting in childhood. Some of these sound like Asperger's, but others don't, and he may well have had other emotional problems in addition to a possible autism spectrum disorder. But it's hard to judge anything just from his manifesto. We'd need to hear from others--his parents, teachers, therapists, etc. to better understand him, and how others saw him, through various stages of his development. His own version is very one-sided, both because he was very narcissistic and ego-centric, but also because it's meant to be his statement about what made him the person he became, so it focuses mainly on him and his reactions to his life experiences.

He appears to have suffered from depression for a very long time. His paranoia and grandiosity and, even his revenge fantasies, were all super-imposed on that depression. His "manifesto"--which is really an autobiographical account of "My Twisted Life"-- is really one long suicide note.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 05:07 pm
@firefly,
Ah, now you're finally getting into the greyness of the issue.

Most all laws talk about the capacity to consent...but with alcohol intoxication - where is the borderline? (is it semi comatose, or somewhere before that?)

And further,blood alcohol levels will continue to climb even after you stop drinking, sometimes for a few hours, before falling...so the borderline can occur after you start having sex.

Further greyness occurs in the mechanics:
---------------------------------------------------
I was standing outside a pub one night when a guy with blood on his face wondered up to the front entrance. The security guards had a look at him, and told him to take a seat while an ambulance was called. A few minutes later some friends wondered up to him and said (can't remember his name, so Mike will do) "Mike, what happened to you". Mike looked at them, looked where he was and saw the Security Guards, felt his head and found blood 'The Bouncers bashed me man". After they explained what had actually happened his 'friends' wondered off. Several minutes later, more friends wondered up 'Mike, what happened to you'...he went through the exact same process and then said 'The Bouncers bashed me man.'

I'm also sure most of us have been out with friends having a great time...who can't remember it the next day.

And I recall watching a video of a guy drinking shot after shot...who is functioning perfectly normally, until he 'suddenly' collapses (ie you can pass out after the fact)...and walking along a footpath when a guy (with friends, all intoxicated) sits down, starts throwing up, and falls into a sem-conscious state.

The point of the above stories - is that alcohol consumption can catch up to you later, people suffering memory loss can 'fill in the blanks', and you don't need to be comatose or near comatose to suffer memory loss.

Then apply that to 'drunken rape' complaint situations...while most rape complaints are legitimate - a number fall under the influence of the above circumstances combined with regret, or shame, or 'I would never do that if sober'.
--------------------------------------
The next issue is that sex is usually not done in public....leaving just the guy & girls words...and whatever was public in the lead up.

This is where the issue of capacity to consent becomes problematic.

(note: if it was public sex or rape, the facts about willingness / consent can speak for themselves)
---------------------------------------
The issue with my example where the woman was the instigator occurs when:
- she suffers memory loss
- she perhaps fills in the blanks (of what little memory she may have)
- she has regrets
- she makes a rape complaint because 'if I can't remember, then I must have been too drunk to consent, or I must have even been semi-comatose'

and

There's only his & her word as to the state of intoxication at the time of the sex (intoxication levels continue to grow for a time after you stop drinking, before starting to fall)

and

Men can be prosecuted - because there is evidence she had sex, she was drunk, she suffered memory loss, and claims she didn't consent.

------------------------------------
If you look at the case of Benjamin Bree (minus her being the instigator). There (plenty of write up's about it. He claims she was an active/willing participant...no witnesses otherwise / she has only a fuzzy recollection). On first trial he was found guilty. On appeal the verdict was quashed.

This is what was said about that matter:
http://ithappenshereoxford.wordpress.com/what-is-sexual-violence/definitions/
Quote:
It is impossible to draw a clear line between someone who is drunk but still able to consent, and someone who is too drunk to consent. The only way to avoid a terrible mistake is to err on the side of caution.


There are plenty of other cases that cover a broad spectrum of intoxication.

I have no sympathy for those who initiate sex with semi-comatose or comatose women.
---------------------------------

vikorr wrote:
gives him oral sex (which will still trigger most rape laws, as it involves penetration)


firefly wrote:
Your ignorance is stunning--if she gives him oral sex, she's not penetrating his body.


Uh...please read the whole thing properly...in the context of the example - her claiming he 'raped' her, and that while she initiated, he had his penis in her mouth (the penetration that can trigger rape laws)....you've managed to screw your reading of this up completely.

But...in case your response is just poorly worded, oral sex can constitute rape (only a man can be charged with rape from oral sex, of course):

Quote:
In Queensland, rape and indecent assault are dealt with under sections 349 and 350 of the Queensland Criminal Code 2000 (QCC). The Criminal Code defines rape as:

-sexual intercourse without consent (in the QCC the expression "carnal knowledge" is used to describe the act of penetration in sexual intercourse - this includes anal intercourse).
- penetration of a persons vulva, vagina or anus to any extent with a thing (for example, an object, like a stick or bottle) or -- any body part (eg. a finger) without consent.
-oral penetration to any extent of a person by a penis without their consent.

----------------------------------------------
Now, as to drunk sex and consent itself:

http://www.gotconsent.ca/common-questions.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/can-she-consent-to-sex-after-drinking/article17158564/

There are other such things, but I think I've spent enough time on this subject...and people will think what they want to think.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 May, 2014 05:10 pm
@firefly,
It's just that one word he included that makes me think that FF. But if so, I would imagine Elliot would be in denial not only not write of it, but put it so far back in his mind that his conscious mind would never remember it, only his actions would speak of it.

He wanted to remain a child, he saw himself as a child until 16, at that point he broke and told everyone he wanted to commit suicide. Money was so important to him, reputation, money, power.

Quote:
Do you remember his saying he saw another boy watching porn on a computer when he was 11? He got a glimpse of a couple having intercourse and he was stunned--he didn't know that was what men and women did--and he was revolted by it--he felt revulsion. He said his father never taught him how to "woo women" but I don't think his father had ever discussed the "facts of life" with him either, or talked to him about sexuality at all. At the age of 11, he certainly should have had some idea of what sexual contact was about, even if he found it "disgusting" to look at at that age.


I don't remember that, as I am reading slowly now page by page and I'm up to 11, then I zoom past again as you do ... I read where everyone asked him about sex but he lied and said he had no sex drive. They left it at that.
What was interesting was when he was shown beautiful naked women at 16. That he had strong emotions, felt traumatized that his childhood was fading away.. Is that fear of sex or fear of having to step out of his comfort zone of having all that he asked for, being looked after by Nanny's given what he wanted, not having to stand on his own.




Quote:
I saved his life, and my brother remembers it to this very day. Every single second of my brother’s life, everything that happens to him in the future, will exist because I pulled him out of the water that day.


Quote:
I was annoyed that he kept having to make it clear to us that he was now in a “financial crisis”. He talked about it all the time, and it was embarrassing.

What a bitter coincidence, that right at the point when my life fell even deeper into agony, my father is cursed with this financial crisis. Right at the time when I needed my father’s support the most, he lost all of his assets. It was as if some malevolent being cursed me with bad luck. I truly had no advantage at all. The universe was not kind to me. I formed an ideology in my head of how the world should work. I was fueled both by my desire to destroy all of the injustices of the world, and to exact revenge on everyone I envy and hate. I decided that my destiny in life is to rise to power so I can impose my ideology on the world and set everything right.

I was only seventeen, I have plenty of time.



Quote:
I thought to myself. I spent all of my time studying in my room, reading books about history, politics, and sociology, trying to learn as much as I can. I became a new person, furiously driven by a goal. My torment would continue, but I had something to live for. I felt empowered.


Quote:
I never thought nor cared about money before I turned 18, because I was still living like a child, with my parents handling the money and giving me the things I needed. However, the more older I grew, the more I realized how important money was, and the more obsessed I would become about getting rich. This obsession, which was barely taking root at the time, sparked a long relationship the Lottery that would only end in disappointment and despair.


Power, money, obsession, rebellion, but yes I think he had a fear of everything once he embarked on it.

At 11 girls payed attention to him, but he said he was too shy and couldn't converse.

He had girls liking him even after 11 but same thing kept happening, he blamed the girls but it was him, not them at all.
 

 
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