Elliot Rodger

I don't think he was ever sexually abused by anyone, male or female. There is nothing in his manifesto to suggest anything of that sort.

I do think he was struggling with, if not homosexual impulses, the fear that others, particularly other males, might see him as being homosexual. He was constantly measuring himself against other males, even in pre-school, and he just couldn't compete when it came to those behaviors most valued as being "masculine".

It's that inability "to compete" with other males--in those areas that other males define as indicating masculine prowess-- that runs through his entire manifesto. And that's why he tells us it went on even as far back as pre-school.

And he documents all the ways he didn't measure up to other males. First it was his short height, then the fact other males were better skateboarders, even better at World of Warcraft video games than he was, and then, after puberty, they were better, considerably better, at attracting females and getting sex from them. And that was the final blow to his already fragile sense of masculinity, the one he felt would doom the rest of his life. And the ridicule and verbal abuse he both experienced, and sometimes imagined, about his failures with females, all came from other males--his male peers. It was other males who taunted him about his virginity, while they boasted about their own masculine prowess with females. And he hated all those other males, while harboring thoughts he was really superior to them.

He was preoccupied with his status and image in many ways, including social class, but his obsession with his status and image as a male, in the eyes of other males, his lack of "masculinity" in the eyes of other men, defined by his inability to get and bed females, dominated his thinking more and more, until finally he couldn't think about anything else--it consumed him. It caused him to drop college classes the first day of a class.

He began acting-out his rage at the "injustice" done to him, by denying him a life "of sex and pleasure", as he thought those other males had. He began spilling drinks on couples he saw being affectionate, he got drunk, in order to decrease his social anxiety about finally going to a party, but, once there, he became violent and tried to push some females off a balcony because they didn't seem interested in him, and he wound up being badly beaten up by other males at the party. He was losing control over his rage months before his "Day of Retribution"--those acting-out incidents were the warning signs, even clearer signs than his YouTube videos.

So issues about his masculinity certainly dominated Elliot Rodger's view of his life, but that doesn't mean they were related to a history of sexual abuse, or concerns about possible homosexual impulses he experienced. His manifesto is written from the perspective of an already mentally disturbed young adult--and an adult who apparently had marked social difficulties as a child. But, even as a young adult looking back on his life, he has no insight into the nature of his social difficulties, his perceptions and recall of earlier experiences are all seen through the lens of someone who is now quite narcissistic and paranoid, really delusional, and who is trying to justify his irrational thoughts and emotions by what he's relating to us in his manifesto.

Whatever life-long problems Elliot Rodger had, like Asperger's, made it very difficult for him to navigate normal stages of psychological and social development, and this intensified big-time when he hit puberty. He was overwhelmed by feelings of inadequacy about living up to the images of masculinity he got from other men and from the media. He compensated somewhat, or tried to, by developing grandiose notions of his own superiority, and his already warped notions of masculinity became even more twisted--he'd prove he was the "real Alpha male" by his power to destroy and kill.

Like you, Foundy, I'm trying to understand how this man's life, and his reactions to his life experiences, influenced his final murderous acts.

I haven't finished the manifesto yet, but I'm up to the part where he's already in Santa Barbara, and on his own for the first time in his life, without his parents, most particularly his mother, to protect him. Until this point, when he couldn't handle peer social pressures, or his response to social pressures real or imagined, including those at the two previous colleges he tried attending, his mother, and to a much lesser extent, his father, came to his rescue and removed him from the situation when he came crying to them.

And, so far in the manifesto, his hatred is not focused on women. With the exception of his step-mother, he describes all of the main female figures in his life as not only nurturing and supportive of him, but as extremely indulgent of whatever he wanted and needed. He says of his mother, admiringly, she gave him whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted it, "with precision". And that does seem to have accounted for his extreme feelings of entitlement. And, it was a devastating blow to his narcissism when he discovered, as a teen and young adult, that all females were not going to treat him the same way momma did, they weren't going to automatically seek to satisfy all of his needs the way momma did. And, in his mind, that was a profound "injustice" because he still felt so entitled.

He really didn't understand how human relationships work, how social bonds are formed, how one negotiates conflicts with others, etc. He really was clueless, and hampered by his exclusively ego-centric views, so he externalized blame all over the place. But, when he found those "men's rights" and "pick-up advice" sites, it helped to crystalize, confirm, and direct his rage at women, because that convinced him he was right in his feelings.

So far in the part of the manifesto I've read, he's never mentioned seeing a therapist at any point in his life...or of having been diagnosed with Asperger's. He may have omitted those things, if they did take place, because he wants to be seen as justified, and rational, and not mentally ill, in terms of how he perceives things, and deals with life.

I agree on all of that. I think hawkeye has bizarre opinions (well, I would) but I take him as straightly respectful while saying what he thinks. Even he and I can talk sometimes.

Meantime, there are all sorts of arguments going on in world news about this case - misogyny? female hatred of men? mental illness of various sorts, failure re mental health, failure of police, or not; gun control? being short forever? distress at being asian? distress at seven of not being blond?

It's a veritable quicksand of discussions all over the place.

Meantime, I don't want to bypass the victims, what a bad f'n day.

....and you are still, literally, unwilling to start focusing on what you can control...this simple piece of behaviour speaks for itself.

Everyone is seeking to lay blame for this young man's actions on something. But, when all is said and done, he, and only he, is responsible. He knew what he was doing, and why he was doing it. And there is no legitimate excuse for what he did.

Motives of mass murderers are really beside the point. Whether they are workplace shooters, or people who blow up federal buildings in Oklahoma City, they are all people who harbor grudges and feelings of "injustices"--and they are all people who resort to terrorist actions to "get even". And this young man was no different. What difference do his particular motives make? His destructive actions must be deemed totally unacceptable--regardless of motive.

Maybe the media should focus on better ways for people to handle anger, and even rage, because it's expressed inappropriately, in all sorts of ways, beside mass killings, every single day.

We take violence for granted, and that's part of our problem as a society. And part of the fixation with guns in our society reflects that acceptability of violence.

Elliot Rodger didn't need guns, or knives, he needed a shrink--he needed to learn how to handle his anger in non-destructive or violent ways. And that's true of many people who don't rise to the level of committing mass murder--the inability to appropriately handle anger and rage isn't an isolated aberration, confined to only mass killers, and we should stop pretending it's only confined to deranged individuals--the inability to properly control aggressive impulses is, unfortunately, far too common--it goes on all the time. But the media chooses not to focus on that aspect of this latest sensational violent event.

And by all the attention we give to these people, after their horrendous acts, we feed their need to be glorified in some way, even if they are no longer around to see it--they know that suddenly everyone will remember their name and recognize their image. The best thing the media could do is not keep mentioning his name, or showing his photo, or continue to talk about him. Maybe that would help to prevent future crimes of this nature, where fantasies of gaining notoriety are also a reason for such acts.

Hi Osso, I'd raise a few points here:
- how much is known about the victims to discuss?
- people tend to want to solve problems...there's a LOT of problems with this guy
- people want the govt to solve any problem they feel powerless to solve, and the govt was involved, so people then want to know 'why didn't the govt solve it / they surely had to have done something wrong'

It's an absolute tragedy for the victims...but I'm not sure much more can be said about them. People can post memorials...but actual discussion?

For a change, I don't just agree with you. I take it that the HE you are blaming, was a messed up guy, starting early. I can understand his takes, not my own, but I can imagine being him.

There's also a lot of problems going on on college campuses--as is reflected by the White House's push to deal with issues of sexual assault and sexual harassment on campuses.

Elliot Rodger's over-riding view of college life, long before he set foot on a campus, was that college was all about "sex and pleasure". Forget anything to do with academic life, it's just about "sex and pleasure." College is a place for a male to bed females and get one's sexual needs satisfied--and that was the message he got from the media, from the internet, from movies, and from other men. Those were the entitlements of college men--"sex and pleasure". And he's far from the only male receiving such messages.

Those presumed sorts of entitlements, and attitudes, are what would lead to a problem with sexual assaults on campuses, because some of that sex, is going to be unwanted by females.

And the government is trying to address that problem. And addressing that problem of campus sexual assault is far more important than blaming the police for anything they didn't do last April regarding Elliot Rodger. He also told one of his friends he had fantasies of holding women down and raping them--thoughts that disturbed his friend very much. These issues are all connected--and they go far beyond this one individual. Whether Rodger was sexist/misogynist no longer matters, the climate on college campuses, regarding these issues, does matter. It's not just about this guy's problems.

Standard american technique of avoiding all blame for the collectives failure to pursue prudent policies, and as well often refusal in invest capital. It is just like when we have 100 year old water mains that suddenly break and flood streets, the managers will come back with " we had a 4 foot section of pipe thin and break under the pressure, repairs are being made"...what they dont say was that the lifespan of the pipe is 80 years, they all knew that it was supposed to be replaced 20 years ago but they did not do it. When the collective blames for breaking the individuals who break under in this case anti-male societal pressure it is an act of avoiding the problem that caused the break. That humans subjected to abuse will either implode or explode is predictable, the only thing is that you cant predict very well which ones will go, just the city managers cant predict exactly which 4 feet of a 5 thousand foot water main will go, or when.

I'm trying to work out why you wrote that in response to my post.

I've always found the concept of blame to be toxic to problem solving.

I'm not blaming him, I'm holding him, and no one else, responsible for his violent crimes.

He was a very privileged individual, with a life others would envy in many respects, and he had access to any resources he needed with regard to mental health help and treatment.

He had plenty of other options, beside starting to purchase guns, to help him deal with his feelings. His feelings are understandable, his actions aren't.

You must be a marriage councillor.in every other line of work figuring out where the problem is is job #1.

You are talking as a sane person, let me point out.

What I mean is - laying blame is actually counterproductive to 'figuring out the problem'. Once you've found the person to blame, you no longer need look further....and to see if other systems contributed to the problem...

....this is is the exact thing you are trying to articulate to Firefly, while claiming that firefly is blaming Rodger.

Blame is toxic to problem solving.

I by the way, do not think that Firefly is blaming Rodger.

There's a world of difference between blame; and Contributing Circumstances & Personal Responsibility.

You're trying to twist what Rodger experienced--and what he talks about in his manifesto--so it fits your agenda. He didn't experience any "anti-male societal pressure"--the societal pressure he experienced all came from other males--from his male peers. He couldn't cope with male-defined notions of masculinity, and he couldn't display the behaviors that his male peers, and society, told him defined a real man. And it was his male peers who ridiculed him for that, and who flaunted their greater attractiveness to females, and their sexual prowess, over him.

Take a look at what males do to other males, and the messages men send to each other about masculinity, if you really want to understand the problem.

Young American men are now routinely blowing up, doing shoot them ups or setting out bombs......how many more times do we need to do this before we start asking why? "He was one of the weak ones, he cracked" does not solve the problem. Releaving the pressure is the solution.

I disagree with you on that.
I'm also not throwing around culpability.

I'm interested in how we can deal with all this, besides blaming the obviously messed up boy.

I think this started (more or less) when he cottoned on to that he was short.

I've said here that I have liked short men and won't go on about that, but at seven, that may have mattered to his not-usual brain. But then, all that was already a problem.

What parent can guess that?

No, they are not routinely doing any of those things. That's absurd.

But, sexual assaults, and complaints of sexual assaults on campuses, have become all too routine. And, rather than look at that, you try to deny that the problem of sexual assault on campuses even exists.

Why don't you want to look at Elliot Rodger's questionable belief that college life should be all about "sex and pleasure" for a male? That this alleged unrestricted access to "sex and pleasure" should just fall into the lap of any male who walks on a college campus--as a male entitlement. And those are messages other men, and the media, send out--Elliot Rodgers wasn't the only young man getting these messages.

He had an expectation of "sex and pleasure" when he went to college, that's what he thought all other men were enjoying at college, that was the picture the media gave him of campus life for a male. Can't you see how such an expectation might set a lot of men up for disappointment? Can't you see how that might become connected to campus sexual assaults? Rodger did eventually fantasize about holding women down and raping them, in addition to his fantasies about killing people. He felt entitled to something he was never entitled to in the first place--there was no rational reason females should have been falling at his feet and spreading their legs for him--but other males, and the media, defined that expectation for him.

Teaching young people how to to better handle their frustrations, and how to better manage feelings of rage and anger, is the solution. No one is ever going to get everything they want in life all the time. Everyone's life is somewhat "unfair" in one way or another. And most people, including most mentally disturbed people, do not deal with it by killing others, or themselves. The world is not over for anyone who is still a virgin at 20 or 21. No male that age should be made to feel less worthy, by other men, if he doesn't have a "beautiful hot girl" by his side.

Most young American males are not "imploding or exploding"--stop trying to present them as weak, helpless victims of your, quite paranoid, belief in a feminist/government conspiracy.

Take a look at the harmful messages that men send to other men, and the ways men treat other men who do not live up to such male-defined expectations regarding masculinity.