nononono
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 01:41 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Society NEEDS to start having empathy for men's issues, particularly issues of loneliness, alienation, and feeling marginalized. Men shouldn't be suffering in silence just because women or feminists or whoever, have a hard time relating to and understanding the pain men are experiencing. Just because they don't have the same disadvantages in society as men do. Men are people too!

Tragedies like this CAN be prevented.
wmwcjr
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 02:01 am
@nononono,
That "whoever" includes some individual men as well.
nononono
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 02:02 am
@wmwcjr,
Quote:
That "whoever" includes some individual men as well.


You are absolutely correct. Sorry I didn't explicitly state that, and thank you.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  4  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 02:16 am
@nononono,
Quote:
Tragedies like this CAN be prevented.
I'm not so certain that tragedies like this can be prevented, short of locking him up:
- You can't force people to like someone. Even with all the support in the world, you can't force someone to like a person.
- Aspergers can't be cured. The severity of autism can be lessened if intervention occurs early enough, but aspergers isn't usually diagnosed until a bit later in life.
- you can't force a person to take medication, unless you lock them up

Using the problems of a man with aspergers as an example of all that is wrong with feminists, and as an example of the results of the emasculation of men... Many of his issues are medical, not related to women...many of his issues are social - in how he relates to both men & women etc. The huge size of his ego may be his own issue... But accordingly so far - women are to blame for his condition & actions.[/b]. This line of thought is as extreme and nutty as what you profess the 'feminist agenda' to be.

p.s. That last paragraph is for both Hawkeye & nononono. I write 'feminist agenda' because it differs from woman to woman, from group to group, and from culture to culture. Some agendas are fine (treat women as capable human beings) some aren't.
nononono
 
  4  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 02:30 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
I'm not so certain that tragedies like this can be prevented


Even if you can't prevent them, I bet you can statistically reduce the odds of them happening simply by not dismissing when a man expresses these feelings of rejection and exclusion, simply by reaching out and letting him be heard BEFORE it comes to misguided violence. By NOT treating him like a "creep" just because he may be socially awkward.

Quote:
You can't force people to like someone. Even with all the support in the world, you can't force someone to like a person.


That's very true. But as a society we can work to change the atmosphere to try reduce the messages we send about superficial things that should be considered "attractive" and "desirable." And not JUST those things for women, but for men too. I mentioned earlier in this thread how "fat acceptance" is stressed through the media for women BUT NOT for fat men. That's an example right there. How about the importance of wealth and social status as an indicator of male attractiveness also? How about removing the myth of the need for a wedding ring and 2 months salary to prove your love to your bride?

Quote:
Using the problems of a man with aspergers as an example of all that is wrong with feminists, and as an example of the results of the emasculation of men... Many of his issues are medical, not related to women...many of his issues are social - in how he relates to both men & women etc. The huge size of his ego may be his own issue... But accordingly so far - women are to blame for his condition & actions.. This line of thought is as extreme and nutty as what you profess the 'feminist agenda' to be.


I'm not saying that feminism is the ONLY reason for what happened. I'm just focusing on that because the media and society is focusing so strongly and angrily on his quote unquote "misogyny" and ignoring so much else. A counter voice to this is VERY much needed right now.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 02:34 am
@vikorr,
Yes, there is always the question of why and could this have been prevented.
Quote:
His thinking was really revealed in the manifesto, which I'm not sure anyone knew about until the killings began
.


I'm not sure @FF, I agree totally with that. Exactly what he was thinking yes. But, I believe there was enough in his other videos to warrant concern.

Quote:
In a disturbing twist to the case, Shifman revealed Rodger's
Quote:
parents contacted authorities several weeks ago after seeing a series of YouTube videos their son posted which made references to suicide and murder
.

Isn't that enough to warrant watching his videos to see what they saw? They saw it then, weeks ago.

And then, after 7 of them visited him this is what they told his parents, the same people that felt he was both suicidal and about to murder or either/either.

Quote:
According to Shifman, Rodgers was interviewed by police after his parents flagged their concern but police told the family he was a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human".



http://www.smh.com.au/world/elliot-rodgers-parents-warned-police-weeks-before-mass-shooting-20140525-zrne1.html


vikorr
 
  3  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 02:38 am
@nononono,
Your ideas here are well thought out +1
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 02:41 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
Isn't that enough to warrant watching his videos to see what they saw? They saw it then, weeks ago.
Perhaps not. It depends on the laws. In other words - after presenting as not having a mental illness - the videos may not have changed anything (in relation to what police can do). As far as I know, it's not an offence anywhere to have antisocial attitudes or weird beliefs. It really depends on both the laws, what was told to the police (which we only have the parents version of, as far as I know), how Rodger presented, etc.

I remember years ago (wow, it's over 20 years ago now) speaking to a guy on the phone who I gave some advice to (was working in a govt dept at the time), who came in one day later and said "I was told x & y & z by one of your staff members". My reply was "No, you weren't, for I was the one who you spoke to, and what I said was A & B & C'

That wasn't the only time such things like that happened, but it was the most blatant. Since then, I take such one sided versions with a grain of salt.

If you have Coronial Inquests over there - it may find what really happened.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 02:54 am
@vikorr,
I guess.

I also guess I am seeing, parents think their child is either suicidal or going to kill someone. They should know best to a degree. Contact police, mention videos.

Police attend, don't view videos go off of what Elliot states and they say " he's a wonderful human being" to me that's saying "your nuts" walks away laughing. (them)

And, then how do they feel now?

I was always of the opinion if a report is made and references is made as to why the report was filed, then you go to the reference first, sus it out, then go and see the person.

As for Elliot, we already know he was highly intelligent. To pull that off, have the police return with their verdict of " a wonderful human" shirt that's how he saw himself...
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 03:03 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
If his mind was purely on hatred for women, he would not have had the thought of killing those 3 guys first

His mind was never purely on hated for women, but his rage toward women, and the men who got the women, was definitely at the core of his paranoid delusions. He was obsessively preoccupied with that, for a very long time, and everything else followed from that. And he continues to state his hatred for women, in no uncertain terms, until the very end of his manifesto. The media was not biased in reporting that. His misogynist rant about women was like a crescendo at the end of his manifesto.

The more he engaged in violent gory revenge fantasies, the more out of control he actually got regarding his targets. At the end he wanted to just lure people to his apartment and torture and kill them--that's allegedly why he killed the roommates first, to simply get them out of the way. In his mind they were just collateral damage. Then he'd go on to killing other people in other locations. He just wanted to kill. And what he did to his roommates, just shows the horrible, horrible depth of his rage at that point. And the rage wasn't even toward the roommates. He just wanted to kill and mutilate.

His actual shooting spree wasn't really well planned or carried out at all. Considering the magnitude of the violence he wanted to do, he really fell short. He had checked out and selected that particular sorority house. He had planned on entering the sorority house to shoot, and after killing the women inside, he wanted to burn the house down, but he never got out of his car, he just shot at the two women outside of the house.

You're not going to be able to figure out his logic--he wasn't being logical, he wasn't thinking rationally, he was delusional. The fact he killed his male roommates first doesn't tell you anything about the source of his rage--his rage was mainly toward women, he makes that very clear at the end of his manifesto, but the violence he wanted to express, stemming from that rage, was directed toward everyone--toward humanity. This was his ultimate power trip.
Quote:
Humanity has never accepted me among them, and now I know why. I am more than human. I am superior to them all. I am Elliot Rodger… Magnificent, glorious, supreme, eminent… Divine! I am the closest thing there is to a living god. Humanity is a disgusting, depraved, and evil species. It is my purpose to punish them all. I will purify the world of everything that is wrong with it. On the Day of Retribution, I will truly be a powerful god, punishing everyone I deem to be impure and depraved.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 03:07 am
@FOUND SOUL,
All that is fair enough.

My point was that govt depts, police included - are usually constrained in what sort of information they can give out.

So when someone says x & y & z to the media - where the case relates to a particular person, with privacy issues, legal issues, and investigative issues....govt depts will often barely respond with what happened during their process at all - no matter if the allegation is unfounded or not, highly inaccurate, or not.

One side stories can then become very misleading.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 03:27 am
@FOUND SOUL,
It may also be interesting to read "some" of the types of threads on the Forums he was on...

Such as :-

http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-35047.html
Quote:
revealing a calculated murder plan hatched by girls barely old enough to drive, complete with alibis and a 911 call dubbed by media as ‘Oscar-worthy.’


http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/category/pussy-pass/

April 27th

Quote:
Elsewhere in the same thread, I happily noticed, Men’s Rights Redditors were helpfully upvoting the reasonable and uplifting sentiments of decent fellows, like the Men’s Rights Redditor who goes by the name theboners, who offered a sensibly critical take on the always controversial question of whether or not it was a good idea for men to give in to “pussy privilege” and let ladies have the vote:


Just for interest some recent posts:-

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/05/24/pickup-artists-argue-that-game-is-the-solution-to-elliot-rodger-style-rampages-heres-why-theyre-wrong/

Quote:
I bet a few girls told him that he only needs to be himself, be nice, be a gentleman, have a nice car, looks etc. – only to realize that it mattered ****. Instead of learning from the PUA-community he chose to listen to PUAhaters and some of the anti-female comments of the MGTOWs who themselves are often refusing to accept Game or even basic concepts like Alpha/Beta. I think that problem will become way worse, since hypergamy and promiscuity will only increase and most men will be left in the sexual wasteland.


http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/?s=puahate

March 19

Quote:
How to Hate and Envy Every Single Person in the World, PUAhate

Quote:
The regulars at PUAhate.com – we’ve met them before – are a strange and bitter bunch. Most seem to be self-loathing so-called “incels” who blame their lack of romantic and sexual success on their average or below-average looks. Rejecting the basic premise of the pickup artist crowd – that average guys can transform themselves into suave lotharios by mastering manipulative pickup formulas – the PUAhate regulars tend to be true believers in what they somewhat pretentiously call “looks theory,” the odd and obviously untrue notion that women only date men with “male model” looks.edition


Quote:
PUA makes you think that all your problems are because of your personality/behaviour – i.e. things you can control. So when you keep failing, it means that YOU are ******* up and doing things wrong

the reality is that many of us just lost the genetic lottery. we are ugly, the wrong race, the wrong height etc, and that fucked us up. there is NOTHING we can do about it


These are the two sites he frequented. Reading some of those lines, sound familiar to his video? Does to me and to his 140 pages.

0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 03:31 am
@firefly,
Well replied and executed.

Rage is the last step, hatred can be small, rage is burning, larger than life.

Thanks.

I wonder just the few links I just put of the Forums he visited and I am sure they've taken down all his posts and likewise answers, insults, words to him whether, he gleaned as we don't know when he joined, some of this rage from there.

FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 03:34 am
@vikorr,
I get your point. And that's true here in SA, Adelaide as well.

It's more than likely the media is saying they never saw the tapes, or they have chosen the words " he was a wonderful human" one would wish on the last note at least.

A part of getting older is getting wiser, is also still learning and I appreciate all of that in my life.

0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 03:50 am
@firefly,
Quote:
And he continues to state his hatred for women, in no uncertain terms, until the very end of his manifesto. The media was not biased in reporting that.


The media WAS biased because they focused SOLELY on that part. That's why there was a hashtag that trended that ONLY focused on the female victims.

Again, 4 men dead, 2 women. That's a 2 to 1 ratio.

He was a misanthrope NOT a misogynist.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 03:50 am
@wmwcjr,
Quote:
Some of the worst enemies of boys are other boys, and some of the worst enemies of men are other men -- which is not to say that there aren't some vicious girls and women as well. But a lot of us men have trouble defining masculinity. We cut down other guys without any supposed input from feminists.

Thank you for pointing that out.

That is also what I was trying to express earlier. And I do think Elliot Rodger felt cut down by other men, because he wasn't living up to the expectations of "masculinity" transmitted to him by other men. His need for a "beautiful girl" by his side was more like a need for a trophy, that other men could see, which would confirm his manhood in their eyes.



firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 04:09 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
I wonder just the few links I just put of the Forums he visited and I am sure they've taken down all his posts and likewise answers, insults, words to him whether, he gleaned as we don't know when he joined, some of this rage from there

At the very least, it confirmed and further justified his rage for him in the case of one site..
Quote:

He writes that he discovered PUAHate.com — the anti-pick-up-artist site — in the Spring of 2013 and that many people there “shared [his] hatred of women [but] would be too cowardly to act on it” and that the site “confirmed his theories about how wicked and degenerate women really are.”
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 04:18 am
@firefly,
1. Don't vote down as I will vote up.

I think I get the picture to not google what is being said, rather "permitting time" review the 140 pages and these sites, as that is where he was, read, put things together. There is also bodybuilding.com and wizarddchan as well.

Justified his rage "for him" .. Yep I do think that with just the few words I hightlighted... Sounds familiar with his final message he's used some of their words/thoughts which appears to then have taken over his thoughts.

August 2013, that's important I think as I think it was over a span of a year I read somewhere that he gathered and started to put this all together.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 04:43 am
@nononono,
I suggest you read the misogynist rant in his manifesto--it leaves no doubt he was a misogynist.

He was also targeting that sorority house. It was his only specific target in that area.

His rage was toward women, and toward men who got the women, but he wanted to direct his violence toward everyone.

The media focused on that part of the manifesto because his hatred of women, in his mind, explained why he had to get rid of humanity. And his hatred of woman was expressed in no uncertain terms, along with what he'd like seen to done to women. It's a very long, and shocking, misogynist rant. There was no way the media could have not pointed it out. His absolute contempt for women came through loud and clear. And it was much stronger than anything he felt toward humanity in general.

You don't go by gender body counts. That's absurd. He horribly killed and mutilated his roommates--but he expressed no animosity, at all, toward them in his manifesto. He just needed to get them out of the way, so he'd have the apartment to himself.

The media hasn't been biased. His misogyny was a main part of his motivation to plan and commit murderous acts. The media is correctly interpreting what he wrote. What he wrote, in his own words, is more important than the gender numbers he actually wound up killing. He wanted to kill everyone in that sorority house--fortunately, he didn't succeed in doing that. He did manage to kill the two women outside of the house. He specifically targeted the house because it was a sorority house.

You're trying to deny the reality of what this man was thinking--but he wrote it all down because he wanted everyone to know what he thought of women.



FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 May, 2014 04:53 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
1. Don't vote down as I will vote up.


Sorry FF, that wasn't directed at you but you know that.
 

 
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