ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 07:27 pm
@nononono,
Some of us older women lived when only a rare woman could get into med or law school (I have data on that) and there was general dismissal going on all over the place. That was in early sixties.

I'm not in love with the word feminism, but I get the history. Basically, I'm really glad about civil rights changes.
Personal takes just didn't roll away back then, and some antagonism survives now.
0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 07:34 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
I hope you understand that your thinking regarding feminism is irrational and based on ignorance.


How so? The word itself infers that one gender is more deserving of privileges than the other.

Quote:
And that Elliot Rodger's thinking was irrational and the product of mental illness and psychosis.


That was big part why the murders occurred. But this young man was in pain, a very real pain that countless numbers of men experience.

Yes mental health issues need to be addressed. So do gun laws for God's sake (it should not be this easy to attain all that ammo.) But so should feelings of alienation among men in regards to way women, feminism, society, and the media treat them.

In the hypersexualized society we live in it's not hard to understand how badly a 22 year old male virgin could be feeling. That of course does not excuse murder. Of course it doesn't. I'm saying for someone in their 20's who's never had sex it must seem like some bigger than life validation of one's humanity. Especially if you're male and have a stronger biological drive to procreate than women do.

Of course for us people older than our 20's who've had sex it's going to be kind of hard to understand that kind of feeling of alienation.

The man did a horrible thing. But there more men out there experiencing these exact same feelings (feelings that women can not comprehend.) It's time to start addressing the reality that a lot of men ARE marginalized in society. If we do that as well as address gun control issues, and mental health issues we can have some hope in preventing this kind of violence from happening again.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 07:54 pm
I agree with several tenets of the men's rights movement. I participate in some parenting forums and single dads/stay at home dads have some really legitimate complaints -- the suspicious looks they get at the playground, the fact that their young daughters can't seem to host playdates or sleepovers since there isn't a woman in the home, etc. (My dad was a single dad back in the 50s (his wife died) and he was pretty much told he had no business raising a child -- that he should send his kid off somewhere -- relatives, adoptions, something else, anything else. (He didn't.))

They also get the short end of the stick in most custody battles, even when they would make the better custodial parent.

They essentially have no input on whether a woman should continue a pregnancy or not.

I completely agree that boys are getting short shrift in education. The latest report I read said 1 in 5 boys will be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD during their school years. Twenty percent of boys struggle enough with school to be considered mentally ill. A great percentage of those will be medicated into compliance.

As the parent of a teenage boy, I'm really concerned about a lot of things I see.

But when the men's rights movement starts arguing that if women would just shut up and put out to prevent these kinds of murders I back away from any merit their arguments may have elsewhere.

No person, woman or man, is required to have sex with someone just because the other person wants it to happen.

If this kid had gotten laid he would have just found another reason for carnage.

Men's rights proponents should run the other direction from this guy.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 07:56 pm
@nononono,
Christ, what a putz.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 07:57 pm
@nononono,
Quote:
If we do that as well as address gun control issues, and mental health issues we can have some hope in preventing this kind of violence from happening again.
I am appalled that you dont mention the anti male culture of the schools. For instance this guy would have had a better chance if he had been taken under the wing by a male teacher. But alas the male teachers below grade 9 have been largly driven way by being made to feel intently unwelcome, and the male teachers in HS have been largely forced into silence by the anit-male culture and the financial and legal liability they would gain.

Here is a pretty good piece on what male teachers can do if they are allowed in the school and are allowed to practice some male roll modeling other than submission to females

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3633643/Male-teachers-A-strong-answer-to-peer-pressure.html
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:01 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
Men's rights proponents should run the other direction from this guy.

no, because hostile environment contributes to the creation and the worsening of mental illness. Eventually after enough people die you will be forced to consider that maybe we are right. And we are, the science will be clear after we can get the feminist freeze lifted on studying what is wrong with young men.

Quote:
But when the men's rights movement starts arguing that if women would just shut up and put out to prevent these kinds of murders I back away from any merit their arguments may have elsewhere.
The argument is that females should show some basic human decency to males. Ignoring males, pretending that they dont matter (which the feminists will freely admit that they do) , running around in your "girls rule" t-shirts talking trash about men is not what I have in mind. And this is what the have not young men often experience.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:09 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
It's possible, but autism and Aspergers sufferers are more likely to be victimized than to victimize others.

I think he had mental health problems in addition to Asperger's, or other mental health problems that were more severe than the Asperger's.

And he wasn't victimized at college, others did try to include him when they were just hanging out and talking. But, he'd either sit staring into space, sometimes for hours, while they talked, or he'd incessantly complain about not being able to get a date or get laid. If he was in supported-housing, efforts were made to help him socialize. He just wasn't able to do it appropriately. It's not hard to understand why girls weren't interested in him, let alone the "beautiful hot girls." He acted weird, he wasn't fun to be with.

And he had taken to victimizing others, in minor ways, like deliberately spilling drinks on people. Read this, that's partly where my understanding of him is coming from--from the things he recorded, the things he revealed.
Quote:
Rodger also authored a 141-page autobiography titled “My Twisted World,” which was sent to a local news station. He describes the events of his life since birth, blaming an obsession with World of Warcraft for lack of social development in middle and early high school; blaming his father for not teaching him how to woo women; blaming his mother for not re-marrying into the rich, upper class after his parents separated; and blaming his own social awkwardness for getting in the way of his making friends and meeting women. Despite his seemingly-affluent lifestyle, he felt less rich than and inferior to others in the circles in which he traveled, lamenting that his father was not a more successful director. In college, he starts playing the Megamillions Lottery obsessively, spending hundreds of dollars at a time in the hopes of becoming a multi-millionaire, which he thinks will allow him to finally “get a woman.” He visited a shooting range for the first time at age 21 after he failed to win the lottery when there was a $120 million jackpot.

He expresses jealousy of people in sexual relationships; he seems more hateful of and angry at specific men — friends and social acquaintances — than at particular women. Women are vaguer to him, objects of desire; he sees them as both superior to him and inferior at the same time. The jealousy gets more and more deranged as the manifesto goes on. As he becomes a fan of Game of Thrones, he expresses a desire to a friend to “flay” a couple he sees in a mall food court; he seems especially enraged when men of other races are dating white women (despite his being half-Malaysian).

He feels the jealousy and sadness that all of us feel at some point when we are alone, without a romantic partner, except his loneliness manifests as a desire to cause violence for people who are happy. He starts acting out by spilling beverages on people he dislikes: coffee on a couple making out in a Starbucks, ice tea on a couple he saw in a mall whom he followed with his car. When he was 20, after two women at a bus stop didn’t smile back at him when he drove by, he turned his car around and splashed them with his Starbucks latte, taking pleasure in it staining their jeans, driving away quickly before they could get his license plate. And months later, when he spotted a happy group of “popular college kids” — “typical fraternity jocks, tall and muscular” and “beautiful blonde girls” — playing kickball in a park, he went to a K-mart and bought a Supersoaker, which he filled with orange juice and sprayed them, driving away when they chased him, an ominous foreshadowing of the devastation he would wreak later with a real gun.

At 21, he called his parents ranting about his loneliness and virginity. They insisted he see a psychiatrist. The next month, he bought his first gun.

He writes that he discovered PUAHate.com — the anti-pick-up-artist site — in the Spring of 2013 and that many people there “shared [his] hatred of women [but] would be too cowardly to act on it” and that the site “confirmed his theories about how wicked and degenerate women really are.” He had already started having violent thoughts and planning his “day of retribution” before visiting the site. He was seeing a psychiatrist as well as a series of “counselors,” who were supposed to essentially act as friends and help him socialize, but Rodger’s deranged jealousy was such that it only made him more distraught when women were attracted to his counselor and though he bonded with a female counselor, she moved away, and he didn’t want another because it felt like prostitution to hire a woman to spend time with him. The psychiatrist prescribed Risperidone, but Rodger refused to take it after Googling it.

During a last ditch effort to lose his virginity at 21 in the fall of 2013, he got drunk and went to a party, but he wound up getting violent and trying to push people off a ledge. He wound up getting pushed instead, and beaten, and broke his leg. The rest of his story is increasingly bitter and psychotic as he plans his “Day of Retribution,” including plans to lure people to his house and torture them in the style of Theon Greyjoy, though he does not actually name the Game of Thrones character. We all know how the story ends. Most of his YouTube videos were filmed during that time. Someone actually saw them and reported them leading police to be sent to Rodger’s apartment. He reassured the police that he was fine, and they left, but he notes that if they had searched his room, “they would have ended everything.”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/05/24/the-disturbing-internet-footprint-of-santa-barbara-shooter-elliot-rodger/

The article is mistaken in one regard--the police visited him in April, and there were no disturbing YouTube videos posted by then. He wasn't announcing any violent intentions, or intentions of harming anyone, until shortly before he acted last Friday. I think his parents concern in April was more likely a fear he might be suicidal.

His inner world was twisted, and it became moreso as he continued to decompensate. But he really wasn't being victimized in reality. And his self image at times was unrealistically grandiose--he describes himself as being "godly". He seems to have had more problems than just Asperger's. Psychosis is not typical of Asperger's either, and he did become psychotic, his thinking became delusional and paranoid. And that, unfortunately, didn't interfere with his ability to legally purchase 3 guns and a large supply of ammo.

I'm not sure there is much point in trying to figure him out now--it won't change anything. We know he was one sick puppy. He left behind a 141 page document to tell us that.

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:09 pm
@boomerang,
Yes on all you say.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:12 pm
http://images.superherostuff.com/image-tsmrvlgrlrlvnk-0-watermark.jpg
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uIp0ABv3L._SX342_.jpg

http://scm-l3.technorati.com/13/03/04/75281/keep-calm-sexism.jpg?t=20130304034547

http://image2.8ball.co.uk/catalog/product/cache/1/image/700x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/o/dont_be_sexist_mk_2_-_ind_mens.jpg
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:20 pm
@boomerang,
Take a look.....the schools will allow the " girls rule" t-shirt often times......that is the problem, schools are anti-male so they allow anti male messaging that most certainly would not be allowed in a just world looking for equality.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:25 pm
@nononono,
Not justification, but certainly people can ably see why she did it.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:29 pm
@nononono,
OK, how do you propose women and girls should accommodate these festering male needs. Will you need permission from their fathers, or just list your preferences with the local male satisfaction/pleasure store. Would you need permission from husbands, or can you simply snap your finger and point to the vessel of your choice? How would pregnant women fare? Will all sexually pleasured men pay dues to support those poor souls who will live thru life without fathers? Sorry, trick question, children are only the responsibly of women, men have his huge urge to procreate but little interest in supporting the fruit of their loins. I suppose that means my dad, grandfather, husband and son were weak kneed sissy's for hanging around and raising the accidents that occurred while they were satisfying that ITCH?

I'm so sorry God created women, or maybe not enough women so that men would have 24 hour genitalia access to non-male organs, unless of course men prefer those who are similarly equipped. Maybe you frustrated guys should sue nature or God. It really was sloppy planning on someone's part that young men by increasing numbers have opted to stay as dependent on their mothers because they fear growing-up. And we all know that happens because their wildly successful dads, were overpowered by poorly educated, unemployed, dominate feminist mothers.

So for Christ's sake will you pathetic echoes of manhood, man the hell up, because your ass could just as well be shot because somebody's distressed man/boy can't deal with the stresses of life. Stop pampering yourself with the notion you are sex-deprived. I'm happy my mother was 25 and my Dad was 30 and married with a committed purpose to raise a family when I was born. If you think it would great to be born when your Dad was 12, good luck. I enjoyed growing up with parents, our sons enjoyed the same, and my granddaughter thinks it's normal that she has a mom an dad who are married and live together.

0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:37 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
He expresses jealousy of people in sexual relationships; he seems more hateful of and angry at specific men — friends and social acquaintances — than at particular women.


And yet the hashtag trending is #YesAllWomen. Again, the male victims (double in number than the female victims) are being marginalized.

He wasn't a misogynist, he was a misanthrope.
0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:45 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I am appalled that you dont mention the anti male culture of the schools.


I apologize. There is indeed a very anti-male culture in schools. From elementary all the way up to especially college where every male on campus is seen as a rapist in waiting.

Feminism is a CANCER on society. It will not last in the long run, unless women are willing to modify into something else that isn't hateful and that includes addressing men's issues. Of course then it would naturally be called something else.

The world and society as it stands right now does not have much if any empathy towards men. And empathy is what is needed.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:47 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Psychosis is not typical of Asperger's either, and he did become psychotic,
his thinking became delusional and paranoid. And that, unfortunately,
didn't interfere with his ability to legally purchase 3 guns and a large supply of ammo.
It sounds like Firefly is complaining
of the failure of the telepathic powers of gun merchants.
She thinks thay shud have KNOWN what he was thinking.
( Note that the police thought that he was normal. )



firefly wrote:
I'm not sure there is much point in trying
to figure him out now--it won't change anything.
He just lost his mind.



firefly wrote:
We know he was one sick puppy.
He left behind a 141 page document to tell us that.
Less attention wud have been paid to this,
if he had killed the same number of victims with his car.





David
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:47 pm
@nononono,
What a tool.

In any case, just shut up.

Most of us are interested in how people are dealing with the horror.
nononono
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:51 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
But when the men's rights movement starts arguing that if women would just shut up and put out to prevent these kinds of murders I back away from any merit their arguments may have elsewhere.


The men's rights movement is not arguing this at all, and this young man does not represent them.

I just think it's very telling how much opposition there is against a movement that simply wants men's issues to be addressed, where a hateful ideology that women are more deserving of privilege in society is accepted and largy unquestioned.
nononono
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:55 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
What a tool.


You're just proving that you don't have empathy for men or men's issues. Shocker.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:56 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Most of us are interested in how people are dealing with the horror.

In addition to my sorrow for the families of the victims, I also feel it for Rodger's parents. I don't know how a parent can cope when their child does something like this--and they've lost that child too.

It took the father of the Sandy Hook shooter a year before he could speak about his feelings in an interview.

I hope the media will back off and leave Rodger's parents alone. At least until when, and if, they decide to talk about their son.

 

 
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