FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 05:57 am
@vikorr,
Men have the p0wer forget Ego as Elliot had a huge one, try, vulnerability . They go for it, those girls who have it and use it to their advantage by using one word.


Love.

Agree or disagree?
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 06:07 am
@nononono,
Quote:
Do I really need to provide examples that have NOTHING to do with this subject in order to clarify myself?
You have the choice to keep up an ideology that contributes to a victim culture - which you are doing well at.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 06:13 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
'Disturbed white males' are the most dangerous people in the country: Michael Moore speaks out

Michael Moore is a deranged kook who supports the 9/11 attackers and who wants to abolish all freedom in America.
0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 06:51 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
You have the choice to keep up an ideology that contributes to a victim culture - which you are doing well at.


I'm not keeping up any "ideology".

Things like this have happened before. There was a man named George Sodini who killed people in 2009 for similar reasons of feeling unwanted and marginalized as a man. This is going to happen again. But it doesn't have to.

What really angers me is that this man Elliot Rodger explained EXACTLY what his motivation was (feeling unwanted) and now people (mostly feminists) are perverting that for their own means. Just like when Bin Laden explained his motivations for 9/11 and then Bush perverted that to accomplish his own goals.

Men everywhere (but not EVERY man) are frustrated because of the imbalance between the sexes. Women do not understand this frustration because they can't and won't ever experience feeling unwanted or disposable as a whole gender. That part of their human self worth is never in question (And if you're going to pick apart my wordage, I do acknowledge that some women are seen as more desirable than others. I'm speaking of the gender as a whole.)

Instead of using this tragedy to demonize men and give more power to the hate movement feminism, we as a society should be searching out those men who are suffering in silence and give them a voice. We should be looking for new ways to find balance between the genders. We should be searching for ways to help the VAST array of men who feel unwanted to instead feel wanted and feel included in society by women.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 08:04 am
@nononono,
Quote:
Women do not understand this frustration because they can't and won't ever experience feeling unwanted or disposable as a whole gender.

<chuckle>
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 11:46 am
@nononono,
Quote:

And it can't be denied that feminism is the single biggest contributor to victim culture on the planet.

Oh, I think it can be denied.

fem·i·nism
noun \ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm\

: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

Most men support that idea of equality and they don't find it threatening.

Elliot Rodger was a young man in a homicidal rage because he couldn't get laid, he couldn't get a "beautiful girl" "a hot girl"--things he felt entitled to have. And he hated women for denying him these entitlements. And he hated the other men who were able to get "beautiful girls" and "hot girls" and get sex from them, and he felt a profound cosmic injustice was being done to him, because he was better than those men. He said his act of "retribution" was to prove he was "the real Alpha male"--he'd prove it by his ability to destroy the lives of those people.

Elliot Rodger wasn't the victim of "feminism" or women--he was a victim of his own sense of entitlement and his sexist thinking. He was a victim of a male myth that the worth of a man is proved by his ability to get beautiful and hot girls and get laid--the peer pressure he felt in his head was coming from other males--it was coming from those jocks and frat boys who he envied and despised--because they got the beautiful hot women he felt more deserving of and entitled to (and of course, the only women worth having)--these men were the role models, who set the standards, he couldn't live up to.

This wasn't some guy just suffering from loneliness and feelings of rejection. He was also the victim of rather warped, and rather sexist thinking about women, and the twisted images and messages of masculine success he got from other men. Consequently, he felt women were withholding his entitlements as a male, and he was going to prove his power and superiority over them, and punish them, by killing them. If he couldn't prove his masculine power by getting women into bed, he'd prove it by his power to kill. He said this all quite clearly in the 141 page manifesto he e-mailed out just before his killing spree.

You need to take a look at the sexist messages many men send to other men, about women, and about sex, and what makes for "a real man" or a "successful man" and the harmful impact of those messages on both men and women. Don't blame "feminism" for the deleterious effects of essentially sexist and misogynist thinking--which is what was going on in Rodger's head--that's the sort of thing a feminist would rail against.



firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 12:37 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
....and I agree that Elliot Rodgers was pleasing in physical appearance. I referred to his androgynous looks, there was an almost feminine delicateness about this young man who looked much younger than 22....add the androgynous look to his shyness and it possibly might have caused the female pause....Something prevented the females from gravitating towards him....But here I am guesstimating, only going by his non-masculine looks

I think you're really being somewhat sexist in considering his appearance "non-masculine" because he had a slender frame rather than a more imposing large athletic build. Plenty of women find men built just like Rodger desirable and quite masculine. And they find men attractive because of more than just their height or build, just as men find women attractive for reasons beyond those things. Attractive people, of both genders, have an easier time in many areas of life, but Rodger wasn't physically unattractive, or "non-masculine", and I personally wouldn't consider him "androgynous" in appearance.
Quote:

Elliot Rodgers, unquestionably, possessed some deep-seated mental problems.

That's what made him unattractive to women. And that's also what accounted for his social awkwardness and his ability to relate well, not just in the "dating game" but in all social situations. Friends, both male and female, did try to include him in conversational groups, but they describe him as just sitting and staring into space, sometimes for hours, while they all conversed, or, when he did talk, it was mostly to incessantly complain about his inability to get a girl and get laid. Elliot wasn't an appealing person or a fun guy to be around, because of his mental problems. That's why women weren't interested in going out with him.

The housing he was in at college was a sort of supported-living arrangement--an independent living program for those with problems or social difficulties. And many of his "counselors" were also like companions to help him with his problems and provide him with socialization help. He knew his problems were due to a psychiatric problem, but he also tried to deny it, and his paranoid blaming of women, and his narcissism and perverse grandiosity about his power to destroy, were part of that denial.

His behavior had been getting quite inappropriate and he had been acting-out:
Quote:
Rodger also authored a 141-page autobiography titled “My Twisted World,” which was sent to a local news station. He describes the events of his life since birth, blaming an obsession with World of Warcraft for lack of social development in middle and early high school; blaming his father for not teaching him how to woo women; blaming his mother for not re-marrying into the rich, upper class after his parents separated; and blaming his own social awkwardness for getting in the way of his making friends and meeting women. Despite his seemingly-affluent lifestyle, he felt less rich than and inferior to others in the circles in which he traveled, lamenting that his father was not a more successful director. In college, he starts playing the Megamillions Lottery obsessively, spending hundreds of dollars at a time in the hopes of becoming a multi-millionaire, which he thinks will allow him to finally “get a woman.” He visited a shooting range for the first time at age 21 after he failed to win the lottery when there was a $120 million jackpot.

He expresses jealousy of people in sexual relationships; he seems more hateful of and angry at specific men — friends and social acquaintances — than at particular women. Women are vaguer to him, objects of desire; he sees them as both superior to him and inferior at the same time. The jealousy gets more and more deranged as the manifesto goes on. As he becomes a fan of Game of Thrones, he expresses a desire to a friend to “flay” a couple he sees in a mall food court; he seems especially enraged when men of other races are dating white women (despite his being half-Malaysian).

He feels the jealousy and sadness that all of us feel at some point when we are alone, without a romantic partner, except his loneliness manifests as a desire to cause violence for people who are happy. He starts acting out by spilling beverages on people he dislikes: coffee on a couple making out in a Starbucks, ice tea on a couple he saw in a mall whom he followed with his car. When he was 20, after two women at a bus stop didn’t smile back at him when he drove by, he turned his car around and splashed them with his Starbucks latte, taking pleasure in it staining their jeans, driving away quickly before they could get his license plate. And months later, when he spotted a happy group of “popular college kids” — “typical fraternity jocks, tall and muscular” and “beautiful blonde girls” — playing kickball in a park, he went to a K-mart and bought a Supersoaker, which he filled with orange juice and sprayed them, driving away when they chased him, an ominous foreshadowing of the devastation he would wreak later with a real gun.

At 21, he called his parents ranting about his loneliness and virginity. They insisted he see a psychiatrist. The next month, he bought his first gun.

He writes that he discovered PUAHate.com — the anti-pick-up-artist site — in the Spring of 2013 and that many people there “shared [his] hatred of women [but] would be too cowardly to act on it” and that the site “confirmed his theories about how wicked and degenerate women really are.” He had already started having violent thoughts and planning his “day of retribution” before visiting the site. He was seeing a psychiatrist as well as a series of “counselors,” who were supposed to essentially act as friends and help him socialize, but Rodger’s deranged jealousy was such that it only made him more distraught when women were attracted to his counselor and though he bonded with a female counselor, she moved away, and he didn’t want another because it felt like prostitution to hire a woman to spend time with him. The psychiatrist prescribed Risperidone, but Rodger refused to take it after Googling it.

During a last ditch effort to lose his virginity at 21 in the fall of 2013, he got drunk and went to a party, but he wound up getting violent and trying to push people off a ledge. He wound up getting pushed instead, and beaten, and broke his leg. The rest of his story is increasingly bitter and psychotic as he plans his “Day of Retribution,” including plans to lure people to his house and torture them in the style of Theon Greyjoy, though he does not actually name the Game of Thrones character. We all know how the story ends. Most of his YouTube videos were filmed during that time. Someone actually saw them and reported them leading police to be sent to Rodger’s apartment. He reassured the police that he was fine, and they left, but he notes that if they had searched his room, “they would have ended everything.”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/05/24/the-disturbing-internet-footprint-of-santa-barbara-shooter-elliot-rodger/


His problem was that he was living in a twisted world--a twisted inner world--and that's why he wasn't making it in the real world.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 12:51 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
“His parents did everything they could to help him. It seemed that Elliot suffered from extreme paranoia and heard voices, but it was impossible to properly diagnose because he just wouldn’t talk. Having been prescribed psychiatric medication, Elliot refused to take it.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/ucsb-mass-shooter-refused-psychiatric-medicines-parents-in-hiding/

The trouble is that before feminism kicked in women who were crumbling in their unjust environment were labeled individual troubled neurotics.....we did not generally connect the imploding individuals to the environment being wrong. Men explode often we dont just implode, making the same mistake of ignoring the suppression of a gender as we did then is going to cost us a lot more dead people.

The major failure of feminism is that we have learned nothing about the importance of gender equality, we have simply switched who is being abused.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 12:51 pm
@nononono,
Sounds just wonderful...until you realise how hypocritical your stance is...for you focus only on that which men have little control over...providing ideology that allows excuse after excuse for failure...while refusing to acknowledging (or promote) that which men can control.

Replace 'men' with 'you' (generic third party 'you')... and it is this sort of behaviour that is at the heart of every self made victim.

Convsersely, every man who goes out and becomes more...focuses on what they can control, who they wish to (realistically) become.

hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 01:16 pm
Just for shits and grins compare how current mens rights leaders are viewed by the establishment with how feminists of the 1950's were viewed by the establishment back then.

" their nuts"

"what are they complaining about, they have it good"

" they are dangerous"

"they should be ignored"

" it is a good thing that most of gender D is not like them!"

" your gender D partner is not like them. right?"
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 01:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The trouble is that before feminism kicked in women who were crumbling in their unjust environment were labeled individual troubled neurotics.....we did not generally connect the imploding individuals to the environment being wrong. Men explode often we dont just implode, making the same mistake of ignoring the suppression of a gender as we did then is going to cost us a lot more dead people.

Neurotic symptoms, are hardly the equivalent of psychotic symptoms, such as hallucinations, paranoia, delusions, etc. Women with psychotic symptoms were regarded as psychotic before "feminism kicked in", just as women with such symptoms would be considered psychotic now.

Elliot Roger was not "neurotic" due to "an unjust environment"--he was displaying symptoms of possible psychosis, such as delusions, and, if he was also experiencing hallucinations, he would be considered a paranoid schizophrenic.

You are now attributing schizophrenia to feminism and "the suppression of gender"?

Now you're sounding delusional.

I don't believe he did experience auditory hallucinations--he expressed himself quite well in his 141 page "My Twisted World" and does not, ever, seem to have mentioned hearing voices. He was quite delusional, and rather consumed by his delusions, which is why medication was prescribed. He definitely would not be considered "neurotic" or be seen as experiencing an understandable reaction to an "unjust environment". His thinking was quite aberrant.

Your problem is that you don't recognize his thinking as paranoid and delusional, you agree with his warped and sexist/misogynist perceptions of reality, so you identify with his feelings of male entitlement, and his outrage at the "injustice" he was being subjected to. That just makes your thinking as screwed-up as his was.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 01:21 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Elliot Roger was not "neurotic" due to "an unjust environment"--he was displaying symptoms of psychosis, and, if he was experiencing hallucinations, he would be considered a paranoid schizophrenic.


Should we take your arm chair diagnosis, or rather the one the docs who saw him came up with?
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 01:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
At which stage was he diagnosed, for neurosis can degenerate into psychosis.

My view of his rant just before he murdered those people is psychosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 01:40 pm
@vikorr,
And my view is that his rant follows closely with what I believe to be the general condition of America's have not young men, a growing hopeless underclass, so he was most certainly not " disconnected from reality". The reality is that his reality sucked. This according to Firefly makes me psychotic as well. Helpful if the intent is to sweep under the rug any question as to whether a serious problem exists, otherwise not.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 01:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Should we take your arm chair diagnosis, or rather the one the docs who saw him came up with?

If the psychiatrist who saw him prescribed Respiridone, as that person apparently did, they agree with me.
Quote:
Risperidone (/rɨˈspɛərɨdoʊn/ ri-SPAIR-i-dohn) (trade name Risperdal, and generics) is an antipsychotic drug mainly used to treat schizophrenia (including adolescent schizophrenia), schizoaffective disorder, the mixed and manic states of bipolar disorder.

Risperidone belongs to the class of atypical antipsychotics which are second generation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risperidone


According to his parents, Elliot had been diagnosed as having Aspberger syndrome, and Respiridone is appropriate for psychotic symptoms in such individuals.

His symptoms weren't due to an "unjust environment". You believe that because your thinking about women and sex and men's "entitlements" is as screwed-up as his was.

glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 02:06 pm
Well, there's nothing quite like a tragedy to bring out the protective nature of our men. I feel so much safer now, knowing there are big strong men who will look out for the weaker in our society, because of the strong belief system and code of honor their fathers and uncles instilled in them.

Then again, we have our pale excuse of a man, Hawkeye. Go figure.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 02:10 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
According to his parents, Elliot had been diagnosed as having Aspberger syndrome, and Respiridone is appropriate for psychotic symptoms in such individuals.


Quote:
Risperidone is sometimes used to treat problem behaviours in people with autism, including aggression, self-injurious behaviours and sudden mood changes.

There is a significant amount of research evidence to suggest that risperidone may be beneficial for the treatment of various problems faced by people with autism, including irritability, repetition and hyperactivity.


http://www.autism.org.uk/living-with-autism/strategies-and-approaches/health-and-service-based-interventions/risperidone.aspx

One, I dont know that this drug was prescribed. Two, If it was I dont know why it was prescribed. Because this drug is routinely used for purposes other than psychosis you cant assume that it was prescribed for psychosis.

This is just a garden variety Firefly tries to float the bullshit example.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 02:25 pm
@hawkeye10,
Answering a hawkeye post from way back there, I think school policies that I have read about on a2k, usually on Boomer's thread, and elsewhere, seem unenlightened and less than useful. Well, many schools' policies.

This whole anti feminist set of rants are taking one set of loud women feminists as group think for all, when, as I've mentioned before, in all of feminist history, there are many different takes on issues.

There are as many takes on issues as there are food trends over a century in the United States. The premise that feminists as a group hate men is a blown up crock. As it happens, a lot of real feminists are men.


Edit. I'm older as you probably know, 72 going on 100 but really, at heart, something like, um, 50. Anyway, I don't have children around me that are in schools. I do have my cousin's son to cite - he's a high school lit teacher with his own grade school history of being kept behind for year because of math. They made him assistant principal, but that turned out to be a job he hated, and he demoted himself back to the classroom. He understands kids, and certainly boys.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 02:33 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
The premise that feminists hate men is a blown up crock.


Please, During the mid 80's I was slightly connected to a band of radical lesbian feminists at University who were very clear that they had no use for men. A couple from the band lived in the same housing co-op I did. They even took me to a gay club one night, as one of the ones I lived with kind of liked me for my advanced thinking (I was then a stanch advocate for feminism , at a place and in a time when few men were). I got the joy of having some drinks with them as they flirted with each other and talked about how much men suck.

The problem has only gotten worse over the years.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 May, 2014 02:34 pm
Well if can see a silver lining in a massacre of young men and women, hats off to hawk, who actually believes it a natural progression because he hates and fears women.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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