Need help with mysterious old oil painting.

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Last time I posted here asking for help identifying an artist my question was amazingly answered in less than an hour. So here's to hoping you fine interneters can help me out again. I foremost want help identifying the artist, but would also like to get some input on the painting itself since it is very strange.

I was at an estate auction last night and was lucky enough to win a huge beautiful old oil painting [48"x31"]. When I first saw it, it reminded me of a Dega for obvious reasons, but it wasn't until I got home and started researching to I.D. the artist that I figured out why it reminded me so much. When I started searching paintings similar to Dega I saw an actual Dega that was incredibly similar, then I saw another and realized this painting is actually a combination of the 2 other genuine Dega paintings. So the mystery deepens. This painting is obviously very old and shows all the signs. The canvas is very dark in the rear, the stretcher wood is also age darkened. There is oil bleed through to the back. The paint is crackling in the front. The canvas is fastened with what appears to be hand wrought nails. The canvas is also very dry along the edges of the stretcher. When I was taking the photos to post here I noticed an old repair in the back as well.
So assuming the painting is as old as it appears, was it painted by an early Dega superfan trying to homage to the master? By a very talented pirate trying to bank on Degas success? By a friend of Dega that might have been standing right next to him painting the same scene? I actually read that Dega used photographs to paint from so could it be that it was painted from the same photo that Dega split into 2 separate paintings? As I said it is very mysterious. If it were a modern painting I would just assume it was a tribute painting, but this one appears to be old enough to have been painted within a decade or 2 of the originals so I am stumped. I took a bunch of photos of the painting front and back and of the signature so if anyone can help me figure this one out I would be eternally greatful. I also am posting the 2 Degas up here as well.

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2841.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2850.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2848.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2846.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2845.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2844.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2843.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2838.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2836.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2835.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2836.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2831.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/degasthe-dancing-class-1874.jpg

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/degas-ballet-class-c1878.jpg

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Type: Question • Score: 4 • Views: 2,255 • Replies: 13

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@chairmanofthehoard,

For some reason, I can't get your links to open so I'm posting them here so I can see them together....

Found:

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd467/jamesfsnyderphotography/ballet%20painting/IMG_2841.jpg

Degas:

1 Reply

@boomerang,

Here is a link to the photobucket album. Hopefully that will help. How do you post photos directly into the content of the blog? That is how I wanted to post it but couldn't figure it out.

http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/jamesfsnyderphotography/slideshow/ballet%20painting
Thanks

2 Replies

@chairmanofthehoard,

P.S. add an "S" to the end of each Dega. I feel like an uncultured swine.

0 Replies

@chairmanofthehoard,

Quote:

How do you post photos directly into the content of the blog?

Ticomaya wrote:

How to add an image to A2K in 6 painfully easy steps:

1. Navagate to "imgur.com." You can type those words in the browser address area each time, or perhaps if you're feeling adventurous, save it as a bookmark/favorite.

2. Click on "Computer" in the "Upload images" section on the page. You might have to look for this, but it's sorta toward the upper right of the page.

3. Navigate to your image on your computer. (Pretend you are going to email it to a friend.)

4. Click "Start Upload".

(Seconds later .... Voila ... your image is now hosted on the Internet!)

5. Copy the link to the image, which is found to the right of the displayed image. (I use the "BBCode" link, and just paste that directly into my A2K post -- it adds the IMG codes so I don't have to. Otherwise you can use the "Direct Link" and add those codes yourself.)

6. Paste the link into your A2K post (using the IMG codes if using the "Direct Link" method, or without using the IMG codes if using the "BBCode" method.)

(Voila again ... you have just added a link of your image to your post. Always preview to make sure it worked properly.)

Note: The IMG codes should like something like this, as they surround the link to your image in your post:

Code:[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Kxym77c.png[/IMG]

facebook is also a good hosting site...

0 Replies

You're not an uncultured swine but that's a nice username, I might try it sometime, except that I'd be an uncultured sow. Anyway, from boomerang's efforts, I take it as Degas worship (or other emotions or play). Still likely interesting in itself.
How to link can depend on your computer. Mac directions are slightly different re clicking, but since you already have gotten to photobucket, you're past that. I've had troubles after the last photobucket changes myself - their link always seems too long but for me those are the ones that work.

Also, there is a trick for keeping a photo the right size, if it is from google images - and to cone it down, here's a link to that -
http://blog.able2know.org/2008/09/13/new-image-bbcode-features-size-and-align/

Me, I like photos at something like 900 width and 600 height, or vice versa.
Less, fine; more width tends to stretch the page.

1 Reply

@chairmanofthehoard,

Ive got some stuff from a forensic outfit that does art verification for insurance claims. The stuff I have from them identifies a Thomas Keating as a Degas forger. BUT , Keating would sign 'Degas" and his style was in a hard line with darker darks (almost blue blacks similr to Degas style)
The guy you ost, Sorry, don't recognize the name at all and Ive got no lists of inderteminate age artists.
Sorry.

0 Replies

@ossobuco,

I checked the photo show, clearly not Degas, but when? I'm just guessing, I'm not an art history major (only reader) - guessing 50's to 70's.
The frame also looks newer than old to me - I tend to like frames (if they are there) that make sense, and this one may make sense, same time as the painting was done, faux faux, on purpose.

Also - I'm not smart about earlier frames, so don't just look re 50's - 70's - and it may not be frame related, that's a guess.

1 Reply

@chairmanofthehoard,

I was thinking more turn of the century on age. The canvas is just to discolored and dryed to be more modern than that. Plus almost every painting after the 1930s would have staples fixing it to the stretcher rather than nails/tacks. That and the tacks are not uniform at all and appear hand wrought. I could be completely off though and sometimes things are purposefully made to look older. I just didn't get that feeling from this. It actually even smells old if that makes any sense to you.

0 Replies

@ossobuco,

As far as the frame goes it is definately victorian in style but frames like that made a comeback midcentury and I wouldn't be able to tell the different between an old one and a really old one.

1 Reply

@chairmanofthehoard,

That may be the ticket. I used to live in a land far away that had an amazing framer (not the one next door to our gallery, but the guy in Ferndale (I think it was). He was a framer, but had a art history sense (framing must have driven him nuts, just a guess, or may be a passion).

Anyway, I'd look there first. The rest of the old stuff is interesting too (and may be real?) Maybe it is just weathered.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

I was just doing a little more research into how to determine the age of a painting by the construction and found a great little video from Dr. Lori [I think I've seen here on the Roads show]. Anyway she points out that 19th cent paintings have loose weave canvas and 20th cent. have tight weaves. The weave on this one is pretty loose, so one more hint that it's pretty old but no closer to figuring out when and by who. Here's a link to the video:
http://www.drloriv.com/Tips/ID/468/Color-of-your-Paintings-Canvas

1 Reply

@chairmanofthehoard,

That's interesting, for sure to me, but I'm the wrong person - but also not stupid, sometimes I can figure stuff out.

I was already interested when you described the canvas before. Chase that. It's real or not.

Dr. Lori, no, I have hearing problems and she sounds no language to me.

0 Replies

There's so many problems with this painting. It might just be the lighting but in the long shot the paint looks too 'bright', and the teacher and the dancer just don't look Degas. The teacher seems clumsily composed and the solo dancer seem too modern. Some of the detail shots of the dancers at the barre look spot on, though. I feel like I've seen this before.

0 Replies

Need help with mysterious old oil painting.

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