OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 08:39 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

AaronJW wrote:
Why are the feelings of others even something to consider?

They are not --- except if you have a problem with the notion that you're selfish. If you don't have a problem with being selfish, there's no reason to get offended when people call you selfish. Just own it. On the other hand, if you do have a problem with it, don't take it out on those people; they're merely telling you the truth. You can't have it both ways.
Yes; very well reasoned,
as is very ofen the case with Tom's posts.





David
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 08:59 am
@AaronJW,
AaronJW wrote:

I battled with the thought suicide for the greater half of a year, mostly because of the things I am here to discuss. I was told by multiple individuals that suicide is selfish. To me, that is the most inconsiderate, narrow-minded, ridiculous claim that can be made about suicide. Is there anyone here that agrees with me?


In my opinion, suicide reflects a short-sightedness to the fact that nothing stays the same in life. And also that suicidal thoughts is a medical condition that can be addressed medically. Meaning suicidals think that their suicidal thoughts reflect some great insight to his/her less than perfect existence, yet it is just a medical condition that requires professional help. Focussing on whether or not suicide is selfish might be the wrong focus, like asking a mirror whether humble people look in a mirror more than self-absorbed people.

In my opinion, suicidals might just be melodramatic to the nth degree, and believe that if the script they wrote for themselves, relative to their lives, is not achieved, the play must end abruptly.

Perhaps, the thinking that suicidals might be selfish might be reworded to ask whether suicidals are also the proverbial "poor losers" one remembers at childhood games.

By the way, after a suicidal commits suicide, and might have been thinking that the suicide is a way to get back at an uncaring person/world, many people in a candid moment will just think the suicide was foolish at best, in my opinion.
AaronJW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 10:00 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Your argument is nice, but I'm not a believer in supernatural forces. I couldn't care less what the bible says.
AaronJW
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 10:01 am
@Thomas,
Anyone who says suicide is selfish obviously isn't very selfless themselves. That's what it comes down to.
JLNobody
 
  3  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 10:38 am
@AaronJW,
Doesn't it depend on why one wants to commit suicide? Perhaps some suicides are selfish and others are altruistic--as in the case of war heroes who sacrifice themselves for others. The sociologist, Emil Durkeim, in his classic study, Suicide, categorized suicides into three types: "altruistic suicide", "egoistic suicide" and--less relevant to this discussion-- "anomic suicide" (reflecting something like lack of meaningfulness and sense of belonging).
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 11:02 am
@AaronJW,
AaronJW wrote:

I battled with the thought suicide for the greater half of a year, mostly because of the things I am here to discuss. I was told by multiple individuals that suicide is selfish. To me, that is the most inconsiderate, narrow-minded, ridiculous claim that can be made about suicide. Is there anyone here that agrees with me?


I agree with you and with Nietzsche who opined that we have both the right to our lives and our deaths.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 11:42 am
In regard the the selfishness of suicide, JLNobody summarized it well.

In regard to the reason for suicide being deep depression, suicide is an extreme measure to take given the medications and therapy that are available to deal with that depression.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 12:11 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

AaronJW wrote:
Why are the feelings of others even something to consider?

They are not --- except if you have a problem with the notion that you're selfish. If you don't have a problem with being selfish, there's no reason to get offended when people call you selfish. Just own it. On the other hand, if you do have a problem with it, don't take it out on those people; they're merely telling you the truth. You can't have it both ways.


That's what I think too Thomas.

While I try to generally live with the idea of "first do no harm" there are always going to be areas where each person draws the line. There are definately areas in mine. The problem being, as you said, being able to own your areas of selfishness.

Thinking back, on the occassions I've been called selfish, i.e. because I've never wanted, and refused to have children, the person calling me that has always been someone that could not possibly be affected my my selfishness.

It's another exampled of people being affronted because you don't think/act the way you do.

Re suicide, same thing, for almost everyone in this world, that decision will not affect them at all. For me it would be important that people whose lives would be changed by it should know my plans, and why. While it would still hurt them, it would help them in coming to terms.

So while suicide is selfish in ways that can hurt others, there are ways to try to minimzie that hurt.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 02:03 pm
@AaronJW,
AaronJW wrote:
Your argument is nice, but I'm not a believer in supernatural forces.
I couldn't care less what the bible says.
Sir, do u wish to be addressed as Aaron, or Mr. Aaron, or J ?? something else?
A NATURAL force is your conscious mind, which lasts a lot longer than your brain.
Suicides who have returned from death
(meaning no EKG, no EEG, no respiration for a while) in the hospital
have had some complaints in regard to prevalent conditions
after the death of their human bodies.

Thay were glad to come back out of there.





David



0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 04:46 pm
Another suicide attempt, given the respect it deserves.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 05:39 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Meaning suicidals think that their suicidal thoughts reflect some great insight to his/her less than perfect existence
Most otherwise normal, but very suicidal people are absolutely confused about their lives.

Plenty of suicidal people are mentally impaired - they can function socially but never truly fit it...and suffer from great frustration, anger, and depression.

etc.

It's a trap to make such an encompassing statement of opinion about what suicidal people think of their lives, though it may be true for one that you knew.

Quote:
yet it is just a medical condition that requires professional help.
Medication can address the chemical reasons for suicidal thoughts. There's often more to suicidal thoughts than just chemistry though.

Quote:
In my opinion, suicidals might just be melodramatic to the nth degree, and believe that if the script they wrote for themselves, relative to their lives, is not achieved, the play must end abruptly.
The first sentence can certainly apply to some, but it's usually not connected with the second sentence...perhaps if the suicidal was an actor.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 06:58 pm
There may be a comment or two on point in this thread, but if there is it is only because the poster attempted suicide. If I missed such a post, forgive me.

Suicide, in the main, is entirely self motivated.

We are all hardwired to live, no matter what, and so successfuly taking one's life is an extreme action.

When life becomes truly unbearable...which is to say a source of continuous pain thorughout one's waking hours...it is not a question of wanting to die as much as it not wanting to live as life has delivered.

So many people talk about this subject who have absolutely no bearing.


0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 07:35 pm
@AaronJW,
If one has continued suicide ideation, one should seek professional help. And, that is because an attempted suicide is a medical condition that one has not gotten treatment for. Professional help is the operant word; not advice from friends. Suicidal ideation is not an intellectual topic for friendly musing or discussion, in my opinion.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2014 11:18 pm
@Foofie,
I think there is narrow room for intellectual discussion of suicide, but aside from Yukio Mishima, I'm not sure it would have much practical relevance.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2014 05:29 am
Quote:
AaronJW said: @RF- Your argument is nice, but I'm not a believer in supernatural forces. I couldn't care less what the bible says.

Jesus was solid flesh and blood, not a myth!
The trick is to mindmeld with him to get him into your head to act as a bouncer to kick out any dark thoughts that might be in there just like he said-
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/jesus-meld_zps86861c7d.jpg~original
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2014 06:43 am
@AaronJW,
Hi Aaron. I haven't read all the other posts that the others are referring to yet, but in answer to your question:
I do not believe it is selfish. It is your life and you are free to do with it what you want. The tragedy, I would say, is that these issues may well be temporary and that it is is possible you can overcome them and enjoy life.
I would say that anyone who did not respect your choice, and who would deem it as selfish, is actually either selfish themselves, narrow minded, or blinded by their own emotional response. Why would a friend, for example, be more upset that their friend no longer exists, than that their friend is existing within a living hell?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2014 07:08 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Quote:
AaronJW said: @RF- Your argument is nice, but I'm not a believer in supernatural forces. I couldn't care less what the bible says.
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
Jesus was solid flesh and blood, not a myth!
The trick is to mindmeld with him to get him
into your head to act as a bouncer to kick out any dark thoughts
that might be in there just like he said-
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)
Interesting that some people who have returned from death in hospitals
have reported feeling empathetic ONENESS with medical personnel in the room,
with the flowers in there and with the dog barking across the street.





David
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2014 05:02 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
If one has continued suicide ideation, one should seek professional help. And, that is because an attempted suicide is a medical condition that one has not gotten treatment for.

You could be creating confusion between being suicidal and attempting suicide. They are linked - but the moment of suicide often has extra symptoms to suicidal thoughts.

Exactly what are police negotiators and other crisis workers working with if they save a person about to commit suicide - they aren't saving them through medication.

Quote:
Professional help is the operant word; not advice from friends. Suicidal ideation is not an intellectual topic for friendly musing or discussion, in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2014 09:57 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:

Hi Aaron. I haven't read all the other posts that the others are referring to yet, but in answer to your question:
I do not believe it is selfish. It is your life and you are free to do with it what you want. The tragedy, I would say, is that these issues may well be temporary and that it is is possible you can overcome them and enjoy life.
I would say that anyone who did not respect your choice, and who would deem it as selfish, is actually either selfish themselves, narrow minded, or blinded by their own emotional response. Why would a friend, for example, be more upset that their friend no longer exists, than that their friend is existing within a living hell?


Specious, in my opinion. Sort of like saying a person should not go to a doctor for pneumonia, if one believes that it is not necessary, and then dies from pneumonia. After dying from pneumonia, all the people that knew and liked that person could be thinking why didn't he just go to a doctor and get the pneumonia treated? There is no ethical (aka, selfish) question here. People should get pneumonia treated medically. And similarly, people should get suicide ideation treated medically. The brain of someone with suicide ideation is not working correctly, in my opinion. The question of selfishness ignores the fact that the medical community believes that suicide ideation is a medical condition.

And, one might not have the right to do with one's life as one wants, if one chooses to not live on the top of a mountain as an adult hermit. Living in society reflects a social contract. Society says we are obligated to give others a correct role model. So, one is not just doing with one's life as one wants, since it affects others; sometimes too young to understand many things.

In fact, the argument that one has the right to do with one's life as one wants is an argument that is arguing the correctness of a selfish orientation to society. So, selfishness is not just a question for the person with suicide ideation, since if selfishness can be argued to be a possible choice, that argument is promulgating selfishness. Selfishness then is assigned to the person promulgating the right to be selfish, in my opinion.

All of the above ignores the fact that suicide ideation is a medical condition, and should be treated professionally. The question of selfishness is just avoiding that reality, by not bringing up the need for professional intervention, in my opinion.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2014 10:01 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

...Exactly what are police negotiators and other crisis workers working with if they save a person about to commit suicide - they aren't saving them through medication...



That is a non-sequitur, in my opinion, since the protocol for an attempted suicide is to get continued intervention. It is a medical condition that might require medication, or counseling, or some other therapy. Not being a professional, I do not know what is required, but medication can just be one avenue of continued help.
0 Replies
 
 

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