Why should I believe in the concept of god?

All of which is sort of an aside to Cav's point, that belief can result in humans being more productive, doing more positive things..

I agree, many times this is true, re various faiths. I have an atheist friend who has backed off, thinking faith has been a fulcrum for much good. (She being well aware of all the negs.)

Which I somewhat agree with. I have seen much good come of faith, the basic doing of good works, though there are usually tags to the good works that someone else has to pay in obeisance.

I have had my own surfeit of people doing good to get to heaven and would rather an ordinary sinner share a cup of tea, or whatever.

Still, some fair good has come from all this helping. I dunno, look at the Habitat for Humanity. I don't know if that is good or not, but it might be.

I am strongly antimissionary, so can hardly post on all this; but I was once sympathetic and know many people who are involved mean to help others.

You don't need to list for me all the bads about missionarying. I get it; I agree with you.

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Cav's point being an aside to the original topic, as in why should I believe in the concept of God -- a question I am very sure I haven't answered.

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akaMechsmith wrote:

So can we, based on the evidence, conclude that "Gods Love" is a Divine Trait

Nope, we can't, it has to be experienced. It's impossible to describe this experience, though. One can literally feel God's love and know that it comes from him. It's not like knowing something for a fact, it's more like perceiving with a sense that is much higher than any of the bodily senses. It's impossible to doubt it.

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Derevon, I am going to tell you a story.

A friend of mine, a very bright fellow, with a masters in engineering from MIT ( a leading school for engineers in the US), several patents to his credit, high IQ, and all of the bells and whistles that that go along with successfully turning ideas into products.

He and I occasionally enjoyed a bit of the great outdoors off the beaten path a bit. Wilderness views, cold streams, untrammled wildlife and so on.

One afternoon we collected our various spouses and offspring and set out to hike a couple of miles to an abandoned fire lookout tower, perchance to acquire a different view of the world.

My friend was utterly unable to climb the open stairway. He could not bring himself to go any higher than about 12 feet. (and that nearly cost him his lunch- retching) . Remember that this man was an engineer that knew that there was absolutely no danger.

I use this example to illustrate that we cannot trust our brains to overcome our minds. From this it easily follows that an "experience" that cannot be shown to have happened cannot be trusted or testified to.

I regard this as reasonable evidence that the "idea" of a Gods existence cannot be trusted.

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akaMechsmith wrote:

I use this example to illustrate that we cannot trust our brains to overcome our minds. From this it easily follows that an "experience" that cannot be shown to have happened cannot be trusted or testified to.

Good point Mech, I had a similar discussion with a friend of mine earlier today. Everything hinges on what we personally consider to be valid evidence.

My friend believes in near death experiences, and thinks that they are true experiences which carry realistic information, such as leaving your body and going outside the room and reading the thoughts of individuals who think you may be dying. But she believes this because she believes the conviction of others, especially others who she trusts (has known for years).

I on the other hand, I don't consider a person's conviction to be valid evidence of things. This is mostly because I recognize that all of our perceptions are just interpretations of activity which occur in our brain (electrical and chemical), and that any of us can be completely fooled by such brain activity.

People who are inclined to a spiritual philosophy tend to trust their feelings even above the obvious fact that their brains are physical, and capable of very convincing distortions.

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doglover, Study the subject of evolution. It may reveal some truths to you. As more science refuted the 'facts' of the bible, many christians started to interpret them as stories to be understood by the masses when most people did not learn to read. Even the catholic church no longer requires it's followers to believe in the seven day creation of the earth.

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Uh
According to the bible it was 6 days and on the 7th he rested.

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mech and rosborne, yes.

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pistoff, Even though 'he' rested on the seventh day, we don't exclude days we take off from work as lost days - otherwise our calendar would look strange. LOL

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cicerone imposter wrote:

doglover, Study the subject of evolution. It may reveal some truths to you. As more science refuted the 'facts' of the bible, many christians started to interpret them as stories to be understood by the masses when most people did not learn to read. Even the catholic church no longer requires it's followers to believe in the seven day creation of the earth.

I don't take much of the bible literally. I don't believe things like the whale swallowed Jonah, the world was created in 6 days, or that Sarah was a very old woman before she had children...blah, blah, blah, stuff like that. I DO believe that the earth...universe had a guiding force behind it's creation. I always ponder questions like...who created God, when did time begin?

I've been a Lutheran all my life. I'm more of a spiritual Christian than a literal one. I focus on the Devine power of God in my life. I figure that when I die, the answers to my questions will be revealed. I don't believe the human mind could comprehend the answers to the questions I have. It would be like explaining to a three year old what college life and higher education were all about. Their minds aren't developed enough and they have no life experiences to comprehend what you are telling them.

Eh, just my alcohol influenced 2 Cents

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Your alcohol influenced thesis might be your enlightenment. Wink

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Your alcohol influenced thesis might be your enlightenment.

LOL...ya think. Mr. Green

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doglover wrote:

I don't believe the human mind could comprehend the answers to the questions I have. It would be like explaining to a three year old what college life and higher education were all about.

... or it could be much much worse. It could be like trying to explain to a tree, what it's like to love a child, or to hunt for food, or to be aware of its own existence; things it has neither the ability to comprehend, nor the perspective to appreciate.

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doglover wrote:

I believe in God simply because I cannot believe that everything I see around me happened by mere chance. Someone HAD to 'make' it. I also believe in God because I need a higher power...someone who's bigger than me to get through life. I'm sure some people see this as a weakness and, maybe it is. I just know that it comforts me to believe that when my time here on earth is finished, I have the promise of heaven...a beautiful place of beauty, love and where my loved ones who passed before me will be.

So basically you believe because it makes you feel better, not because there's any reason to think that the object of the belief is actually real.

The fallacy of personal incredulity runs rampant through your post. You cannot believe that "X" isn't true, therefore "X" must be true. That doesn't logically follow, sorry. It certainly is a weakness and an irrational way to live one's life, simply following what sounds good at the moment rather than insisting on accepting only the demonstrable truth, but if it works for you...

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rosborne979 wrote:

My friend believes in near death experiences, and thinks that they are true experiences which carry realistic information, such as leaving your body and going outside the room and reading the thoughts of individuals who think you may be dying. But she believes this because she believes the conviction of others, especially others who she trusts (has known for years).

I on the other hand, I don't consider a person's conviction to be valid evidence of things. This is mostly because I recognize that all of our perceptions are just interpretations of activity which occur in our brain (electrical and chemical), and that any of us can be completely fooled by such brain activity.

People who are inclined to a spiritual philosophy tend to trust their feelings even above the obvious fact that their brains are physical, and capable of very convincing distortions.

There's lots of evidence that point against near-death experiences being merely the result of brain activity. People have been known to see items during "out of body"-experiences that they couldn't possibly have seen with their eyes for example. If near-death experiences were triggered by the brain, then it surely would be common to meet live people. This never happens, though, it's always dead people they meet. Many have reported of experiencing a review of their entire lives, in every detail, knowing what every person involved in this person's life have thought and felt, and the reasons and consequences of every action and thought...

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Derevon wrote:

There's lots of evidence that point against near-death experiences being merely the result of brain activity.

There is no empiricle evidence to support this claim. I would bet that every instance you can site is either anecdotal or erroneous. I do not consider something to be valid evidence unless it is empirical in nature.

If the type of evidence which satisfies you is anecdotal, then your requirements for reasonable proof are simply less stringent than mine.

You have a right to believe whatever you want, but you won't be able to convince me without "real" evidence.

Derevon wrote:

People have been known to see items during "out of body"-experiences that they couldn't possibly have seen with their eyes for example.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Derevon wrote:

If near-death experiences were triggered by the brain, then it surely would be common to meet live people.

Non Sequitir

Derevon wrote:

This never happens, though, it's always dead people they meet. Many have reported of experiencing a review of their entire lives, in every detail, knowing what every person involved in this person's life have thought and felt, and the reasons and consequences of every action and thought...

Anecdotal evidence. Useless for proving out of body experience. Very useful for exploring human psycholody and brain physiology however.

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I also have found an alcohol induced alternative reality a pleasant experience. Laughing

But my witty, urbane, handsome, youthful self disappeared as soon as I had to shave! In this particular case the mirror is a satisfactory "reality check". I believe that this is real, despite having been filtered through my imperfect senses. At least it is in accordance with observation.

By using the "idea" of a God to judge human behavior we are often led astray. Need examples Question

I thought not Exclamation

By using the "idea" of a God, society is often prevented from choosing the most appropriate course of action when different communities goals fail to coincide. Need examples Question

I thought not Exclamation

By using the "idea" that there may exist a God we attempt to utilize the most destructive divisive idea that humans have ever come up with. IMO natch. The idea has not been shown to be exclusively used by charitable persons. Need examples Question

A reality check--- Does a world view which includes God square with observations Question

I thought not Shocked

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Mechanically speaking, Very Happy

A near death experience can easily be related to my aforementioned friends agoraphobia. When the brain loses touch with observations, due to death, chemicals, or injury then the subconcious (back up system) which necessarily must be more durable takes over. It is more durable (reliable) as it must function when the wires to the surroundings are down. But the back up system is nowhere as good at interpreting and controlling voluntary functions (thinking). It's not designed to do it.

But when one takes the "idea of God"(from your subconcious)) and uses it to explain the world (your conciousness) it is about the same as using your lantern to read with when the power is out. Or using the computer when the Internet is down.
It can be done but there are serious limitations involved and your chances of a satisfactory resolution of problems are minimized :wink:

I am no brain surgeon. But when I compare reliabilities and durabilities I merely reflect on a simple engineering concept, Namely the fact that the more complex a system is the less reliable it will be. The converse is equally true. This is shown by the fact that people can live in a coma for a long time but no comatose person has ever developed an idea Exclamation

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akaMech, You're missing all the fun at http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22116&start=330
See you over 'there.' LOL

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akaMechsmith wrote:

Mechanically speaking,

A near death experience can easily be related to my aforementioned friends agoraphobia. When the brain loses touch with observations, due to death, chemicals, or injury then the subconcious (back up system) which necessarily must be more durable takes over. It is more durable (reliable) as it must function when the wires to the surroundings are down. But the back up system is nowhere as good at interpreting and controlling voluntary functions (thinking). It's not designed to do it.

Your view seems to be based on the theory that the human is a machine. The fact that you contemplate yourself as a such alone, proves you're not. Machines don't contemplate their own existence, machines don't enjoy and compose beautiful music, machines don't write and appreciate poetry, machines don't have a consciousness... etc etc.

As for near-death experiences, those who've had them perceive them as more real than physical reality. They are not comparable to mere dreams which are from the subconscious. These experiences profoundly transform the people who've experienced them for the rest of their lives. Additionally, people born blind have been known to have visual perception during these experiences.

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Why should I believe in the concept of god?

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