42
   

Destroy My Belief System, Please!

 
 
JLNobody
 
  2  
Fri 14 Feb, 2014 06:06 pm
@Thomas,
I've got no problem at all with it, Thomas: it's how the world seems to work.

An observation that I've made over my years of participation in these philosophy forums is so obvious that I'm afraid it may be banal for most of our A2K philosophers; I just hope they will add to and refine said observations.
It seems to me that we tend to bifurcate the World into opposing almost metaphysical categories: the advocates or practicioners of subjectivism or idealism VERSUS objectivism or realism (in the 60s and 70s social scientists where I studied expressed this as materialism vs. mentalism ); absolutism, which is compatible with various forms of "essentialism", vs. relativism, sometimes expressed as contextualism. Objectivists seem to inhabit a Newtonian world with substantial "things" and structures moving about in an imagined quasi-void while ontological relativists seem to inhabit a world of ever-changing PROCESSES in which "becoming" (rather than being) occurs in a condition of ontological impermanence. There is also a strong tendency to divide the human World by means of an essentialism emphasizing NATURE vs. the "artificialism" or constructivism of CULTURE (wiith its "artifacts"). Everyone acknowledges the reality of both, but we tend to weight them differenly.
I am exaggerating of course: no-one is wholly on one side or the other. We are in a sense amphibians occupying two kinds of reality simultaneously, but most of us (with the obvious exceptions of the more mystically inclined among us--me included), make a dualistic distinction between our world INSIDE (subjectivism) and our world OUTSIDE (objectivism) , no doubt a tendency strengthened in the West by Descartes.
What I find most interesting in this pattern is that it seems to reflect a fundamental dualism running deep within us. We spontaneously emphasize EITHER subjectivism/ relativism/ idealism, etc. OR we emphasize objectivism/ absolutism/ realism, etc..
We seem to do this spontaneously in a manner similar to the way we deal with the ambiguous illusions presented us by the Necker Cube and the Rubin Vase.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Feb, 2014 06:58 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

I've got no problem at all with it, Thomas: it's how the world seems to work.

An observation that I've made over my years of participation in these philosophy forums is so obvious that I'm afraid it may be banal for most of our A2K philosophers; I just hope they will add to and refine said observations.
It seems to me that we tend to bifurcate the World into opposing almost metaphysical categories: the advocates or practicioners of subjectivism or idealism VERSUS objectivism or realism (in the 60s and 70s social scientists where I studied expressed this as materialism vs. mentalism ); absolutism, which is compatible with various forms of "essentialism", vs. relativism, sometimes expressed as contextualism. Objectivists seem to inhabit a Newtonian world with substantial "things" and structures moving about in an imagined quasi-void while ontological relativists seem to inhabit a world of ever-changing PROCESSES in which "becoming" (rather than being) occurs in a condition of ontological impermanence. There is also a strong tendency to divide the human World by means of an essentialism emphasizing NATURE vs. the "artificialism" or constructivism of CULTURE (wiith its "artifacts"). Everyone acknowledges the reality of both, but we tend to weight them differenly.
I am exaggerating of course: no-one is wholly on one side or the other. We are in a sense amphibians occupying two kinds of reality simultaneously, but most of us (with the obvious exceptions of the more mystically inclined among us--me included), make a dualistic distinction between our world INSIDE (subjectivism) and our world OUTSIDE (objectivism) , no doubt a tendency strengthened in the West by Descartes.
What I find most interesting in this pattern is that it seems to reflect a fundamental dualism running deep within us. We spontaneously emphasize EITHER subjectivism/ relativism/ idealism, etc. OR we emphasize objectivism/ absolutism/ realism, etc..
We seem to do this spontaneously in a manner similar to the way we deal with the ambiguous illusions presented us by the Necker Cube and the Rubin Vase.



And some of us, JL...simply acknowledge that we do not know the true nature of REALITY...and that it MAY BE beyond our grasp.

It may be within the objectivism/subjectivism dichotomy you suggest...and it may fall so far outside either of those things that we puny humans are unable to begin to comprehend it. Said another way...the continuum of the dichotomy may NOT contain the REALITY. It MAY NOT be an either/or...or even a point in between.

But whatever it IS...it IS.

It was a pleasure to see you at least give a nod to the possibility that the dualists may be closer to the truth than you non-dualists (that seems to be an adjustment, and a welcome one from my perspective)...but the truth may lie somewhere outside that particular box.

Just sayin'.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sat 15 Feb, 2014 03:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
But whatever it is it is that. I agree.
I'm referring to the human tendency to dualism; I'm not advocating it. I feel (subjectively) certain* our minds are inherently incapable of grasping reality in an absolutist extra-human way. But as a Buddhist I also feel that our "puny human way", or reality, IS--in its purist sense--more than adequate.

* What I am saying is neither true nor false (in an absolute sense); I'm merely expressing an opinion, one that works for me, for the moment.
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 15 Feb, 2014 03:50 pm
Dualism is a theological concept of the Hindus, first articulated before your boy Siddartha was even born. Alleging dualism is an exercise on the part of the one making the allegation--it is necessary that they state someone else's views in terms of so-called dualism--it is an ultimate form of the straw man fallacy. Have fun with that.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 15 Feb, 2014 04:20 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

But whatever it is it is that. I agree.
I'm referring to the human tendency to dualism; I'm not advocating it. I feel (subjectively) certain* our minds are inherently incapable of grasping reality in an absolutist extra-human way. But as a Buddhist I also feel that our "puny human way", or reality, IS--in its purist sense--more than adequate.

* What I am saying is neither true nor false (in an absolute sense); I'm merely expressing an opinion, one that works for me, for the moment.


I continue to think that the real reason for my disagreement with the nn-dualist contingent...is that they are still mistaking REALITY...with the ability of humans to understand and describe it.

Whether or not what I say when speaking of REALITY is true or false...I do not know...but I do know that I seem to be treating illusion (if it is an illusion) dualistically...in order to operate in it.

The reason I used "I seem to be" in that last sentence, is because I cannot really even be sure of that. What seems to be happening...may be something akin to the notion, "You may have been created a split second ago complete with all the memories you suppose you have. "

REALITY is a son-of-a-gun to even consider.

JLNobody
 
  1  
Sat 15 Feb, 2014 10:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Is the "reality" you refer to some kind of ULTIMATE (metaphysical) reality, or simply the world as we experience it?
I agree, by the way, that dualism (like logic) is a strategy enabling us to
operate in the world in particular ways. They are useful but they do not reflect the "unitary" and "paradoxical" world as I see it.
anonymously99
 
  1  
Sat 15 Feb, 2014 10:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
REALITY is a son-of-a-gun to even consider.


You are a zombie?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 16 Feb, 2014 06:40 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Is the "reality" you refer to some kind of ULTIMATE (metaphysical) reality, or simply the world as we experience it?



REALITY...is what ever IS.

I have no idea of what it is...or any of its components.

Quote:

I agree, by the way, that dualism (like logic) is a strategy enabling us to
operate in the world in particular ways. They are useful but they do not reflect the "unitary" and "paradoxical" world as I see it.


No real disagreement, RL...except that I would once again mention that there is a difference between what IS...and what human beings can understand and explain.
anonymously99
 
  0  
Sun 16 Feb, 2014 11:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
I would love for you to explain to me what is going on Frank a. I feel I'm losing touch with reality. Not understanding of my actions. What am I doing. I don't know but I'm confused. Can't make sense of anything.
0 Replies
 
anonymously99
 
  0  
Sun 16 Feb, 2014 11:25 am
@Frank Apisa,
Much appreciation. Other words, thank you.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 16 Feb, 2014 11:28 am
@anonymously99,
anonymously99 wrote:

Much appreciation. Other words, thank you.


Anon...I gave you an extended explanation of how Abuzz went under because people came using different names and just screwed with the site for no reason other than to screw with it.

I have no idea of what your "head problems" are...I am not an expert in how to help you with whatever demons are bothering you...

...and I do not want to contribute to someone who comes to the site with multiple personalities and identities.

If you want to discuss something about an issue...and I think it deserves a response, I will respond.
anonymously99
 
  0  
Sun 16 Feb, 2014 11:31 am
@Frank Apisa,
I believe in the weather.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Mon 17 Feb, 2014 12:37 pm
Quote:
Anonymously said: I feel I'm losing touch with reality. Not understanding of my actions. What am I doing. I don't know but I'm confused. Can't make sense of anything.

Join a religious cult mate, you'll fit in nicely..Smile
Alternatively learn to chill.
Nobody knows what "reality" is anyway, so how can we lose touch with it?
And if "reality" is The World, monks and nuns are GLAD to deliberately lose touch with it by shutting themselves away in remote monasteries and convents!
You don't have to be a monk, just regard your room at home as your "monastery" or oasis of peace in this crazy world and stay in as much as you like watching TV, dabbling on the computer and dancing to nobody's tune but your own!
You've got great backup, look-

Jesus said:- "The world wants you to dance to its tune" (Matt 11:16/17,Luke 4:18 )
"Jesus saved you from the empty way of life handed you by your forefathers" (1 Pet 1:18 )
"Don't conform to the pattern of this world" (Rom 12:2)
"As a soldier of Christ, please only God and not the world" (2 Tim 2:3/4)
"Don't love the world or the things in it,otherwise the love of God is not in you" (1 John 2:15-17)
"Set your mind on things above,not on things on the earth" (Col 3:2)
"You were bought at a price,don't serve men" (1 Cor 7:23)
"A friend of the world is the enemy of God" (James 4:4)
"You were dead when you followed the ways of the world" (Eph 2:1/2)
"You died with Christ from this world, so don't keep submitting to its rules" (Col 2:20)
0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  1  
Tue 18 Feb, 2014 04:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, I think he is probably no older than 13. This is the modern prank call. He/she is getting the desired effect.
tontoiam
 
  1  
Thu 20 Feb, 2014 10:37 am
@Germlat,
Who said anything about a damn turtle? Shocked
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2014 08:25 am
@JLNobody,
Dualism is precisely about the coexistence of two 'worlds', a subjective one 'in our mind', and an objective one 'out there'. So dualism encompasses both these ideas.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2014 11:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, I can't disagree with your mantra "Reality is whatever is the case". It's just that I feel I'm spending energy in a less than optimal way when I insist that "It is what it is" (and perhaps nothing more).
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2014 11:56 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Frank, I can't disagree with your mantra "Reality is whatever is the case".


It is not a mantra...and calling it a mantra is a kind of disguised attempt at an insult.

In any case, I am happy you agree with what is essentially a tautology.

Quote:
It's just that I feel I'm spending energy in a less than optimal way when I insist that "It is what it is" (and perhaps nothing more).


If you feel that way...you feel that way. All I can suggest is that it might be interesting for you to investigate (do introspection into) why you feel that way.

JLNobody
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2014 12:52 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Actually, it was not meant as an "insult" at all. By "mantra" I denote an utterance that conveys a critically important principle.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2014 02:51 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Actually, it was not meant as an "insult" at all. By "mantra" I denote an utterance that conveys a critically important principle.


Okay. And I accept that as the truth.

But you might keep in mind that when "mantra" is used the way you did...it often is meant to be demeaning of the supposed "mantra."
 

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